Questions about the Dubai Ports deal

[achilles28]

Quote from canyonman00:

For those worried about getting bombs into the country, there are tons of ways for the right amount of planning and monies. All we can do is the best we can do until we find the next hole. Then we have to do better to cover that hole!

I'm not sure i understand your logic. Are you suggesting we disregard our open borders because determined terrorists will eventually find another way in?

Thats akin to suggesting one cuts off their right leg since their left leg has already been amputated.

Our security comes in degrees. Not an all-or-nothing type situation.

The more pragmatic and judicious we are in protecting this nations security from external threats, the more secure this nation becomes from terrorist attacks.

This includes shutting down the borders, protecting the ports, total immigration and foreign student visa overhaul (deny, restrict and track and trace).


Otherwise, we're just pissing in the wind.

 

[canyonman00]

Quote from achilles28:

I'm not sure i understand your logic. Are you suggesting we disregard our open borders because determined terrorists will eventually find another way in?

Thats akin to suggesting one cuts off their right leg since their left leg has already been amputated.

Our security comes in degrees. Not an all-or-nothing type situation.

The more pragmatic and judicious we are in protecting this nations security from external threats, the more secure this nation becomes from terrorist attacks.

This includes shutting down the borders, protecting the ports, total immigration and foreign student visa overhaul (deny, restrict and track and trace).

Otherwise, we're just pissing in the wind.

You would never hear me say that we should disregard the borders. But I would tell you to stop obsessing to the point of believing something MUST/WILL be done IMMEDIATELY! That will not happen! No matter how important you deem this change needs to be, in many instances it is not physically possible.

Liken any upgrades, changes, modifications for a country to the way a fully loaded train would be in coming to a stop. When the conductor puts on the brakes, the train comes to a stop a few miles later. Any changes that we agree on, will take years to implement. If we don't agree, then they will take even longer to put in place (if ever, Mexican border).

By the way, we've been pissing in the wind over that Mexican border issue for a while. So far the wind has been blowing south. It's only a matter of time before the wind changes direction.

 

[achilles28]

Quote from canyonman00:

You would never hear me say that we should disregard the borders. But I would tell you to stop obsessing to the point of believing something MUST/WILL be done IMMEDIATELY! That will not happen! No matter how important you deem this change needs to be, in many instances it is not physically possible.

The only reason why the borders remain open is because people like yourself:

#1 fail to recognize the grave threat the open borders pose

and

#2 believe immediate, effective action to close the borders is 'impossible'.


To put it mildly, you are dead wrong on both accounts.

I shouldn't have to explain to you why a porous border adjacent a second-world country poses a serious and egregious threat to our security from terrorists who would seek to exploit any territorial lapse in an effort to smuggle weapons (WMDS) and sleeper cells into this country.

I shouldn't have to tell you that if Mohammed Atta the 2nd wants to smuggle 50 sleeper cells or 50 canisters of Small Pox into this country, he's CERTAINLY NOT going to do so through official entry ports where he, his compatriots and their weapons can be easily detected and detained.

No.

He's going to enter through Mexico, via our 'controlled' southern border, where he - and everything with him - can slip through our border easily, painlessly and completely undetected. That way, he's guaranteed entry into America and completely off the grid.

Which is the better choice?


ANd I can tell you the only reason why people like yourself aren't as 'obsessed' about the borders as i am, is because mass media hasn't told you to be.

People don't think for themselves nowadays. They are TOLD what to think. Unfortunately - at least in this instance - you appear to be one of them.


That takes care of why you should be outraged about the borders.


As to your second point, 'we couldn't change it if we wanted to'.

This is really lame. With all due respect, come on. Every TRUE patriot this country has ever seen would be shaking their head in disgust.

Its not the illustrious 'Federal Government' or sitting President you lavishly beset with praise that controls the lionshare of power in this country.

ITS THE PEOPLE. Read that again if you didn't get it.


Tragically, the People don't realise they have the power. They, like you, have been coddled, castrated, domesticated and fooled into believing power flows from Government and citizens lack the inherent potential to rally HUGE and lasting change.

Truth is, when the American public is galvanized and unified behind a common cause, every shitbag politician, whore lobbyist and Presidential scumbag all fold like a house of cards when faced with the awesome and unequivocal force that is the Will of the American Public.

NEVER underestimate that.

That is the fundamental truth this country was founded on. And that remains to this day the fundamental truth every single society on this planet is predicated upon - whether they recognize it or not:

Government derives its power to rule from the CONSENT of those Governed.


We alone are the last check-and-balance to this out-of-control Political monstrosity we call the Government. And we alone can put this beast down with one flip of the switch, turn of the key or push of the button - if we so chose.

The power is ours.


The Dubai Ports deal exemplifies this.

Americans were rightly outraged at the turnover of our strategic ports to a company controlled by a Government with publicly proven ties to the 9/11 hijackers.

Americans rallied en masse and beat this Administration back into its box in a matter OF DAYS ; simply by exercising our power to revoke that consent, standup and say No.


Again, you have believed a lie.

 

[TorontoTrader2]

As long as HAL cleans up with no-bid contracts on this deal, I'm happy.

 

[TorontoTrader2]

Why don't you outsource it to Pakistan? They have nukes and seem like a nice friendly country.

<B>Pakistan Bribed 9/11 Commission Members

Calcutta Telegraph | March 14 2006

The Pakistan foreign office had paid tens of thousands of dollars to lobbyists in the US to get anti-Pakistan references dropped from the 9/11 inquiry commission report, The Friday Times has claimed.

The Pakistani weekly said its story is based on disclosures made by foreign service officials to the Public Accounts Committee at a secret meeting in Islamabad on Tuesday.

It claimed that some of the commission members were also bribed to prevent them from including damaging information about Pakistan.

The magazine said the PAC grilled officials in the presence of foreign secretary Riaz Mohammad Khan and special secretary Sher Afghan on the money paid to lobbyists.

“The disclosure sheds doubt on the integrity and honesty of the members of the 9/11 inquiry commission and, above all, the authenticity of the information in their final report,” it said.

The report quoted an officer as saying that dramatic changes were made in the final draft of the inquiry commission after the lobbyists got to work. The panel was formed to probe the September 11 terror attack and make suggestions to fight terrorism.

After the commission tipped the lobbyists about the damaging revelations on Pakistan’s role in 9/11, they contacted the panel members and asked them to go soft on the country. The Friday Times claimed that a lot of money was used to silence these members.

According to the report, the lobbyists also helped Pakistan win the sympathy of 75 US Congressmen as part of its strategy to guard Islamabad’s interests in Washington. “US softened towards Pakistan only because of the efforts of the foreign office,” an official was quoted as saying in the report.

The Pakistan foreign office defended the decision to hire the lobbyists, saying it was an established practice in the US.

An observer at the Islamabad meeting said money could play an important role in buying powerful people. The remark came in response to comments made by some US officials after 9/11 that “Pakistanis will sell their mothers for a dollar”.

Pakistan had emerged as front-runner in the fight against terrorism unleashed by the US after the terror strikes. Washington pumped in billions of dollars to win President Pervez Musharraf’s support in launching a crackdown on al Qaida network thriving on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border.
</b>

 

[canyonman00]

Let me start by saying, you're completely wrong. Starting with your opening two points.

I do recognize the threat and I want them closed - period! Immediate is physically impossible. If we agreed tomorrow that this should be done, the base reality of time to do it is in the equation. And that's the only point that I address. If you can only fence say five miles a day and you have 500 miles to fence, you need 100 days if all things went well. But that ain't reality.

Then it has to be paid for. Well, Congress has to budget this. They also need to empower oversight. They need a blue ribbon, bipartisan panel to make sure things go as they should. Then they have to decide does this come under homeland or maybe they need to add a new department, that answers to congress.

Oh, wait their still budgeting the California fence project. Wait until this new project gets all the "PORK" attachments added so they can't get vetoed. Politics! That time goes into the mix too. Then there's logistically moving the actual material, and then the actual purchase. In other words, project management needs time. This is also part of the time that I am addressing with my statement.

And it is folks like you who, after a year of moving this process through the slow halls of government, would be crying about the lack of movement. Even though it would be moving. Moving at the speed of government. If everyone agreed! This IS the reality that I address. But if you've managed projects (especially government) before, you know this fact. Especially major projects!

No matter how great "We The People" are in the motivation scenario, we are not the knotheads in Congress that have to appear as though they are handling our interests. Each one needs to stand and be accounted for so that they have the commercial for the re-election campaigns. It's an election cycle. But you know all this already. Don't you?

Lastly, I am one of the politicians worst nightmares. I actually read (for details), understand (some of the real timeframes) and take no cues from them, the press, or you for my outrage! I actually am glad you're outraged. But six months from now, the only thing that will be happening is you will still be trying to remain outraged. That doesn't make it right, or me comfortable, or happy. It is reality! Now, deal with it.

Quote from achilles28:

The only reason why the borders remain open is because people like yourself:

#1 fail to recognize the grave threat the open borders pose

and

#2 believe immediate, effective action to close the borders is 'impossible'.


To put it mildly, you are dead wrong on both accounts.

I shouldn't have to explain to you why a porous border adjacent a second-world country poses a serious and egregious threat to our security from terrorists who would seek to exploit any territorial lapse in an effort to smuggle weapons (WMDS) and sleeper cells into this country.

I shouldn't have to tell you that if Mohammed Atta the 2nd wants to smuggle 50 sleeper cells or 50 canisters of Small Pox into this country, he's CERTAINLY NOT going to do so through official entry ports where he, his compatriots and their weapons can be easily detected and detained.

No.

He's going to enter through Mexico, via our 'controlled' southern border, where he - and everything with him - can slip through our border easily, painlessly and completely undetected. That way, he's guaranteed entry into America and completely off the grid.

Which is the better choice?


ANd I can tell you the only reason why people like yourself aren't as 'obsessed' about the borders as i am, is because mass media hasn't told you to be.

People don't think for themselves nowadays. They are TOLD what to think. Unfortunately - at least in this instance - you appear to be one of them.


That takes care of why you should be outraged about the borders.


As to your second point, 'we couldn't change it if we wanted to'.

This is really lame. With all due respect, come on. Every TRUE patriot this country has ever seen would be shaking their head in disgust.

Its not the illustrious 'Federal Government' or sitting President you lavishly beset with praise that controls the lionshare of power in this country.

ITS THE PEOPLE. Read that again if you didn't get it.


Tragically, the People don't realise they have the power. They, like you, have been coddled, castrated, domesticated and fooled into believing power flows from Government and citizens lack the inherent potential to rally HUGE and lasting change.

Truth is, when the American public is galvanized and unified behind a common cause, every shitbag politician, whore lobbyist and Presidential scumbag all fold like a house of cards when faced with the awesome and unequivocal force that is the Will of the American Public.

NEVER underestimate that.

That is the fundamental truth this country was founded on. And that remains to this day the fundamental truth every single society on this planet is predicated upon - whether they recognize it or not:

Government derives its power to rule from the CONSENT of those Governed.


We alone are the last check-and-balance to this out-of-control Political monstrosity we call the Government. And we alone can put this beast down with one flip of the switch, turn of the key or push of the button - if we so chose.

The power is ours.


The Dubai Ports deal exemplifies this.

Americans were rightly outraged at the turnover of our strategic ports to a company controlled by a Government with publicly proven ties to the 9/11 hijackers.

Americans rallied en masse and beat this Administration back into its box in a matter OF DAYS ; simply by exercising our power to revoke that consent, standup and say No.


Again, you have believed a lie.

 

[achilles28]

Quote from canyonman00:


I do recognize the threat and I want them closed - period!

Good to hear!!

Quote from canyonman00:

Immediate is physically impossible. If we agreed tomorrow that this should be done, the base reality of time to do it is in the equation.

This is pure strawman. Nowhere have I suggested or stated the borders could be shutdown cold in 24 hours.

Of course it takes time (months) to build the wall and man it with appropriate personnel. You're arguing with the wrong guy here.

Quote from canyonman00:

In other words, project management needs time.

Who said it wouldn't? Undertaking the necessary logistics for a megaproject and committing to it are two entirely different things. I am discussing the later.

Quote from canyonman00:

And it is folks like you who, after a year of moving this process through the slow halls of government, would be crying about the lack of movement.

Chastising Government ineptitude and sloth is NOT a bad thing.

You lose points for credibility here because bureaucratic sluggishness in the face of crisis is by no means the norm.

Was our 'lethargic' Government slow to respond legislatively or military in response to sept 11th? No and No.

We got the Patriot Act and Afghan war in double quick time. Two months.

I think you see my point.

When the collective DEMAND for action exists - either implied or real - Government moves REAL QUICK to justify their position of power to the electorate.

The point here is that bureaucratic paralysis and lethargy only exists when a REAL threat of replacing slothful representatives does not.

Its in how the issue is DEFINED and PRESENTED to the American public that dictates whether or not our shitbag representatives are going to sit around on their fat, hairy asses or actually MOVE on the issue.

We light a fire under their ass by redefining the border issue as it really is - a MASSIVE national security threat that URGENTLY needs to be addressed - and then watch what happens.

You'll see your sleepy, inept, 'hopelessly tired' Government suddenly jacked on steroids doing 300 mph down the freeway just to get the project going!!

We've discovered a currency they finally understand - they're jobs!!

(what shitbags).

Quote from canyonman00:

But if you've managed projects (especially government) before, you know this fact. Especially major projects!

To clarify, this doesn't fall under the optional 'civil works' megaproject. This is a major national security threat that exists during wartime.

Two totally incompatible scenarios warranting two totally different reactions and actions by the American public and their elected representatives, respectively.

Quote from canyonman00:

Each one needs to stand and be accounted for so that they have the commercial for the re-election campaigns. It's an election cycle. But you know all this already. Don't you?

Again. Moot point. The threat of them losing their jobs NOW trumps any inclination to stall the issue for political gain.

When the threat is URGENT, the American People do not wait for their representatives to piss around and pose for pictures. They start taking names and calling for heads on platters.

PRoblem solved.

Quote from canyonman00:

Lastly, I am one of the politicians worst nightmares. I actually read (for details), understand (some of the real timeframes) and take no cues from them, the press, or you for my outrage!

Thats great to hear!! Sincerely. Thank you for being a good American and caring about your country!! We need each other. This country can't be saved by one man or women alone. Group effort

Quote from canyonman00:

I actually am glad you're outraged. But six months from now, the only thing that will be happening is you will still be trying to remain outraged. That doesn't make it right, or me comfortable, or happy. It is reality! Now, deal with it.

haha. Nice try.

But I'll still be here doing my thing six weeks, six months and six years from now.

I am just as passionate about this country and its Constitution as you seem to be.

Brothers in arms.

 

[canyonman00]

Quote from achilles28:

Was our 'lethargic' Government slow to respond legislatively or military in response to sept 11th? No and No.

Yes, it was and still is. In many ways it has proven to be, government. The 9/11 commission moans nightly on any TV show that will have them about how nothing has been acted upon from their findings. Further evidence is the Democratic party planning to use that very fact as part of the coming campaign platform.

We got the Patriot Act and Afghan war in double quick time. Two months.

No good. That has nothing to do with moving any infrastructure and that is my logic of contention. So no I don't see your point. No matter how you wish to moan about things moving ahead, you evidence my statements that they aren't doing so swiftly with every move. Speak of hard assets that have aggressively, completely, been placed into operation. The airports still are not completed with their improvements. How many years has it been? Three months ago they admitted that as fact.

When the collective DEMAND for action exists - either implied or real - Government moves REAL QUICK to justify their position of power to the electorate.

Yes, they talk very measured and very quickly. Always careful to blame with no answers. This is becoming too consistent. None of this addresses hard assets. I think you wish to play semantics. I do not care to.

You'll see your sleepy, inept, 'hopelessly tired' Government suddenly jacked on steroids doing 300 mph down the freeway just to get the project going!!

Great sounding again. There's just no evidence of anything being COMPLETED! Clinton stopped through Chicago many years ago as President and spoke to this grand new improving community project that he was implementing. After ten years of planning and posturing, it was finally to be STARTED. As of today, 10% of this life saving group of programs have been completed. It was supposed to take no more than two years. But you see, the community that he spoke in and to, is not on the terror high priority list. So the politicians have quitely ushered the programs to the back burner.

Again, where is the material project completions that evidence your words? You speak of such great potential energies being put into motion. And that is the problem. That's where most of this ends. No matter how nobel, important and critical the plan, they don't have the fortitude for completion. But don't worry, when something moves and finishes I'll be one of the first to praise the COMPLETION!!!

But I'll still be here doing my thing six weeks, six months and six years from now. I am just as passionate about this country and its Constitution as you seem to be. Brothers in arms.

That was my whole premise in the last posting. You see, had your logic the merit, valor and true support, you would be moved on to the support of the "COMPLETION" of the "NEXT" project. I heartily agree, six weeks., months (and sadly maybe years) from now it is very likely that you'll be still pushing for the COMPLETION of the same projects you speak to today. As important as they are too!

Thanks for the debate.

 

[achilles28]

You're totally missing the point.

When WIDESPREAD outrage is present, politicians MOVE.

When widespread outrage is NOT present, politicians philander and fuck around.


Your counterpoints do nothing but evidence the later statement true.

The collective American Public don't give a RATS ASS if the promised Chicago community center is 20 years behind schedule - even if its completely necessary.

For the same reason the airports in Iraq or Afghanistan aren't completed or the sept 11th Commission recommendations haven't been implemented.

Insufficient outrage exists among ALL Americans to force accountability on their representatives for IMMEDIATE action on the 9/11 Commission or airport building.

Americans - en masse - simply dont care that much. Hence their representatives return to their natural state of sloth and inefficiency because their appointments are insufficiently threatened by an apathetic American electorate.


As to your other points.


The Invasion of Afghanistan involved a cornucopia of HARD MILITARY ASSETS that was speedily rallied together - at the behest and signing authority of congress - in less than 1 MONTH of the attacks.

That would exceed any reasonable persons expectation of expedited Government action.


Your rejection of my second example - the passage of the Patriot Act - on grounds it doesn't involve the management of physical assets is especially puzzling since you consider the 911 Recommendations - of which also are >90% policy oriented - valid for admission.

The Patriot Act was not only written and passed in record time, but its grassroot implementation at the law enforcement level was adopted with double quick speed. The staggering proliferation of National Security Letters, wiretaps and detention of foreign visitors is evidence to that.


Why one failed and the other succeeded is because the crushing weight of the collective American Will was behind one and not the other. Sadly.

 

[canyonman00]

It causes the politicians to mostly filibuster about outrage. I am sure they will sign on this they agree on that. But then two or three years later the public/political heat is no longer in contact with the operative part of whatever the trickle has caused, and that's where things fall off. The further away from the heat so to speak.

This condition is what is the backbone of my argument. As we move along the timeline of life, matters gain or lose interest from the masses. As you get further away from the problems, interest wanes. What is important to you, is not as viable to the day-to-day lives of someone else. But to you, there is but one issue.

And oh by the way, it wasn't a community center. It was a major police presence with the so-called added police funding that the President was touting that congress phantom funded. It was to add needed security to the area that Chicago admits is a runaway crime center. Washington came in to help with this new national police program. I vividly remember the grandstanding and Presidential photo ops. You might even remember Al Gore on TV talking about all the new police during his failed run for President. Police that never were, that never came to be! And you're right, that is not too important to you. What a joke!

I hate to tell you, innocent kids and people being shot in their homes by errant bullets is a way of life for too many. The real terror is not in Iraq for the residents of this community. I have a personal interest in this one. And that interest is as valuable to me as your port issue is to you. You see you are hoping to prevent something that "MIGHT" happen. I am outraged about something that "IS" happening. But you see it doesn't impact you directly so it is dismissed on the importance scale. Well to them, I can confirm for you that your ports don't look too concerning either.

As for asset movement, the military is not the asset movement that I speak of. It's the aftermath when those of us out here in the regular trenches have to perform that I am addressing.

Law enforcement and the Partiot Act? I can't speak to much there other than Chicago is about to start to complain again about the funding and tools that they are still waiting for. The paperwork parts for the police were easy to comply with. It's all the other things that they are waiting for that have them quietly upset. Maybe your city is prepared, but I can tell you Chicago is not (and Dallas is not much better).

As just one example, certain body armor upgrades and chemical gear is still awaiting federal funding. Things that they asked for and were promised two years ago by the way. A ton of recommendations have been made by several organizations empanelled for review and suggestions, but there's no money in the mix to implement all these "good" recommendations. Should something happen now at least the recommendations will be on record so we'll know where to point the finger. The coming election cycle will prove interesting. What will you claim there? Chicago is unaware that we have congressional bipartisan reviews underway and a manual saying that we're prepared!

I can hear them now, "The money never got there? We'll that's just unacceptable. The administration, the government failed us again!" Didn't Katrina show you how little you need to rely on the government to be prepared? Nothing has changed other than we have a skeleton in place to do ~ something!

Maybe if you live in a major metro area you could verify for me that they are prepared on the terror front. You might stop by and ask if they've received the things that they have been promised from the federal government associated with the 9/11 national security plans. You just might be pleasantly surprised (NOT!).

Quote from achilles28:

You're totally missing the point.

When WIDESPREAD outrage is present, politicians MOVE.

When widespread outrage is NOT present, politicians philander and fuck around.


Your counterpoints do nothing but evidence the later statement true.

The collective American Public don't give a RATS ASS if the promised Chicago community center is 20 years behind schedule - even if its completely necessary.

For the same reason the airports in Iraq or Afghanistan aren't completed or the sept 11th Commission recommendations haven't been implemented.

Insufficient outrage exists among ALL Americans to force accountability on their representatives for IMMEDIATE action on the 9/11 Commission or airport building.

Americans - en masse - simply dont care that much. Hence their representatives return to their natural state of sloth and inefficiency because their appointments are insufficiently threatened by an apathetic American electorate.


As to your other points.


The Invasion of Afghanistan involved a cornucopia of HARD MILITARY ASSETS that was speedily rallied together - at the behest and signing authority of congress - in less than 1 MONTH of the attacks.

That would exceed any reasonable persons expectation of expedited Government action.


Your rejection of my second example - the passage of the Patriot Act - on grounds it doesn't involve the management of physical assets is especially puzzling since you consider the 911 Recommendations - of which also are >90% policy oriented - valid for admission.

The Patriot Act was not only written and passed in record time, but its grassroots implementation at the law enforcement level was adopted with double quick speed. The staggering proliferation of National Security Letters, wiretaps and detention of foreign visitors is evidence to that.


Why one failed and the other succeeded is because the crushing weight of the collective American Will was behind one and not the other. Sadly.