Questions about NYSE

[jimrockford]

Quote from Hamlet:

Rockford's post is full of disinformation, but right now I will simply point out that the particular statement quoted above where he implies that "special skills" are required to profitably trade NYSE stocks and that the NYSE system should exist to allow more people with different trading/investing strategies to profit through trading NYSE stocks is absent any logic.

Also note that while the serial NYSE bashers and blamers are a highly vocal lot, the astute silent majority of seasoned successful traders has spoken here:
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66422

First, my posting was misunderstood by Hamlet. I never said special skills were required to trade NYSE stocks profitably; I instead said that special skills were required to extract profits from the specialist system. Many people have NYSE trading strategies which are successful, but which do not achieve their success as a result of the specialist system. Most of those strategies would be even more profitable if the specialist system were abolished. Special skills are required in order to gain an advantage from the specialist system, but they are not required in order to trade NYSE stocks profitably in ways that do not depend upon extracting profits from specialist inefficiencies.

No, my post did not have any "disinformation". Hamlet claims that my posting is filled with disinformation, when in fact, he is unable to provide any evidence or argument to support his claim. Hamlet's claim is, itself, the sort of "disinformation" which he hypocritically attributed to me.

The poll referenced by Hamlet is meaningless and untrustworthy, for a variety of reasons discussed in the thread containing it. The poll, for example, was organized by Hamlet, who was caught red-handed violating EliteTrader membership terms, by posting personal attacks from multiple Elitetrader aliases into yet another thread debating NYSE. Multiple ET identities would have allowed Hamlet to vote multiple times in the poll he constructed. His agenda has been to insult people on ET, rather than to educate them or to learn from them. I still do not understand why he has not been banned from ET. ET's Conduct Rules state: "Registration is limited to one username per member. Elite Trader may, without prior notice, immediately terminate any or all of your accounts after discovering you have registered, and/or posted under, multiple usernames." The whole idea that a poll could even contribute meaningfully to the NYSE debate is, furthermore, fundamentally flawed.

 

[Avid_Consumer]

in trading in general, the hardest fills to get are the ones with the most immediate edge. it's not particularly surprising to see a littany of guys on et who think nyse quoting and fills are a-ok.

there seem to be two supporter camps, the clueless, and the ones who have a commission business built around the model

 

[volente_00]

Quote from jimrockford:


Try to remember that market rules and structures change over time, so that you should be careful before jumping to conclusions that the experiences reported by others are not true. Try also to remember that your particular style of trading might not be a meaningful indicator of the experiences of other traders who trade differently, so that once again, you should not jump to conclusions before dismissing the experiences reported by other traders. You only traded WMT, but that symbol was not handled by Island in the same way as all other NYSE symbols.

Show me where I jumped to conclusions and said anyone's statement was untrue ? I only gave you my own experience with a date. So if you try to trade through right now , will the order not execute ? Or will they bust the trade ?

 

[jimrockford]

Quote from volente_00:

Show me where I jumped to conclusions and said anyone's statement was untrue ? I only gave you my own experience with a date. So if you try to trade through right now , will the order not execute ? Or will they bust the trade ?

No, you didn't give a date in the posting which gives your own experience. You did not give the date until a subsequent post, in which you responded to the issue I raised, that your experience was both outdated and not reflective of NYSE trading in general.

I misinterpreted your first post as support for the arguments of others, who were unfairly belittling critics of NYSE. I misinterpreted your post in this regard. Sorry.

The Island announcement, which I posted previously, explains that if you try to violate the trade thru rule on Island, Island will block your order from executing. Island does this by repricing your order. Island enforces the trade thru rule, not by busting trade-thrus, but by preventing their occurrence.

 

[eusdaiki]

Quote from echo33029:

No. You are wrong!!! It does not matter if this was a previous support level or not.

Yeah sure, Im wrong... you´re right, but the stock moved against you, and kept you in the negative. Not even giving you the chance to get a small profit... I rather be wrong and profitable than right and broke.

 

[Hamlet]

Quote from jimrockford:

I never said special skills were required to trade NYSE stocks profitably; I instead said that special skills were required to extract profits from the specialist system. Many people have NYSE trading strategies which are successful, but which do not achieve their success as a result of the specialist system. Most of those strategies would be even more profitable if the specialist system were abolished. Special skills are required in order to gain an advantage from the specialist system, but they are not required in order to trade NYSE stocks profitably in ways that do not depend upon extracting profits from specialist inefficiencies.

Here Rockford claims that most strategies profitably trading NYSE stocks (which do not depend on the specialist system) would be even more profitable without the specialist system. Claims like these with not a single shred of evidence to back them up show the blinded bias of the serial NYSE basher blamers and conspiracy theorists.

 

[jimrockford]

Quote from Maverick74:

BTW, just in case some of you guys didn't already know this, a specialist can only take a speculative long position on a downtick and can only take a speculative short position on an uptick. In other words, they cannot move the market. They are forced to trade against it. Therefore, they are not manipulating the market or front running it.

Maverick74,

it seems you are overlooking many well-established NYSE facts, and that your reasoning is also flawed.

Your post refers to certain rules specialists must follows, and cites them as proof that specialists cannot move the manipulate or front-run. You are ignoring civil and criminal proceedings in which it was proven that large numbers of specialists don't obey the rules, and that those NYSE officials in charge of policing the specialists are ineffective at enforcing the rules. It just doesn't make any sense to deny the existence of specialist misconduct, by relying upon rules that are not obeyed and not enforced.

You are also overlooking the fact that it is not necessary for a specialist to make further trades, in order to profit from his positions already established by previous trades. This is because the specialist has the power to manipulate transactions between other parties, and also to publish deceptive quotes, which unfairly deprive the market of basic information as to the true state of buying and selling interest.

You are also overlooking the fact that NYSE rules permit NYSE floor traders, other than the specialist, to front run orders from public customers like us. NYSE rules create many situations in which the floor trader's new order steps in front of a public customer's older order, even though both orders have the same price. If the market is going favorably to the competing orders, then the floor traders will tend to step in front, making it harder for John Q. Public to get executions. If the market is going unfavorably, then the floor traders will tend to get out of the way and to let John Q. have an execution, but then, John Q. will regret it because the market is moving against him - and often will already have done so, by the time a horse-driven buggy arrives at the town general store with an execution report.

I'm sure you were wildly profitable trading the specialist system, but that is not relevant. Your ability to benefit from a corrupt system is no reason to entrust our nation's capital markets to a bunch of criminals, who insist upon using outmoded technology as a way to conceal their wrongdoing.

 

[Hamlet]

The same process of missing a fill to another trader who executed before you (stock ahead) happens all the time on both the NYSE and the Nasdaq market. The difference between the two is that one market is fully electronic, while the other is not, therefore the quotes are updated much faster on the fully electronic market. How many times have you seen a bid or offer on an ecn and by the time your finger hit the mouse or key to trade against it someone had beaten you to it? I am sure that it happens constantly. This is the same process which takes place when you miss a NYSE fill, except that the quote is slower to update. This is the nature of a market which is not fully electronic.

 

[jimrockford]

Quote from Hamlet:

Here Rockford claims that most strategies profitably trading NYSE stocks (which do not depend on the specialist system) would be even more profitable without the specialist system. Claims like these with not a single shred of evidence to back them up show the blinded bias of the serial NYSE basher blamers and conspiracy theorists.

No, that isn't what I said, but it is closer than Hamlet usually got in other threads, when he attempted to describe my statements. Hamlet, in previous threads, demonstrated that he lacks the mental ability to read what someone has written and then to describe it accurately. He even admitted, on one occasion, that he quoted me as making a particular statement, even though he knew I hadn't actually made that statement. He lacks the ability to engage in intelligent debate, or to contribute original thoughts, so he instead reacts to postings by others, and creates petty, uninteresting disputes about who said what. All readers should simply ignore Hamlet's presentation of my argument, assume he was not accurate, and then, if you really want to know what I wrote, then read what I wrote, not what Hamlet wrote that I wrote.

 

[Hamlet]

Quote from jimrockford:

Many people have NYSE trading strategies which are successful, but which do not achieve their success as a result of the specialist system. Most of those strategies would be even more profitable if the specialist system were abolished.

For anyone who cares, the quote above is direct from Rockford's post, which he has just claimed that he did not say.

These posts are clear evidence of a blind bias from a serial NYSE basher/blamer.

Furthermore it is clear now that when his unsubstantiated claims are debunked or shown to have faulty logic, he will deny making them.