question on getting fast nyse fills

[jimrockford]

Quote from Dustin:

Jim, you're wrong here. You can execute an ECN order outside of NY quotes at any time of any day. It is possible that your brokers software does not allow this...and if so you need to switch your broker.

The only exeption to this rule that actually affects traders is the uptick rule...and still that varies by ECN. Also, try turning off the marketable order option in your software.

Thanks for pointing that out, Dustin. Perhaps it was my own broker who was enforcing the trade-thru rule, rather than the ECNs. I doubt it, because I read that ECNs are programmed to enforce the trade-thru rule, but hey, maybe my memory is wrong.

I don't know what you are talking about, re: a marketable order option in my software. Can you explain?

 

[Dustin]

Quote from jimrockford:


I don't know what you are talking about, re: a marketable order option in my software. Can you explain?

Sure, ECN's can be set to execute against only their book, or to include everyone else. It's usually called Route Out, and it's different in every software so you may have to ask your broker.

Being able to cross the market is crucial...you won't believe that you ever traded without the ability to do it once fixed.

 

[jimrockford]

Quote from Dustin:

Sure, ECN's can be set to execute against only their book, or to include everyone else. It's usually called Route Out, and it's different in every software so you may have to ask your broker.

Being able to cross the market is crucial...you won't believe that you ever traded without the ability to do it once fixed.

Oh, now I see what you meant. No, my broker doesn't permit its customers to send orders which can be routed out from ECNs. My broker, for example, sends all ARCA orders PNP (Post-no-preference), in order to prevent ARCA from routing our orders elsewhere. My broker prefers to control all routing decisions. Perhaps it is a disadvantage, but my broker has a pretty good SMART router, probably better than ARCA's. But thanks for the suggestion.

 

[alanm]

Quote from jimrockford:

Like I said, the trade-thru rule does not apply outside of regular trading hours. If I understand you correctly, this incident occured outside RTH.

Forgot to translate the time. It happened 10:00 ET, during regular trading hours. Otherwise, any talk of NYSE quotes would be silly

Anyone have NYSE T&S for MO for the time period in question?

 

[JMartinez]

ECN's do trade thru. Not all of them are considered NBBO= exchanges. Trade thru only for exchanges. But even in those cases regionals do cross sometimes. Best thing to do is have direct lines everywhere. Send orders to every exchange: CHX, NITE, MADOFF, BSE, PHS, ARCA, INET, BRUT, NYSE, and see who fills what in that order. Market makers/regionals good cuz they'll take a position against your order and cross the market to give you a fill. Reasoning on the order I chose. All prices off NY so hit them last. Sometimes its good, somtimes bad fill. Just depends on how hard the stocks rips and being able to get stock fill that doesn't normally exist during periods of imbalances/reflexity.

Quote from Dustin:

Sure, ECN's can be set to execute against only their book, or to include everyone else. It's usually called Route Out, and it's different in every software so you may have to ask your broker.

Being able to cross the market is crucial...you won't believe that you ever traded without the ability to do it once fixed.

 

[onelot]

Quote from jimrockford:

but even if I am wrong, nothing excuses your juvenile conduct.

jim,

i cordially corrected the information you first gave, suggesting it was most likely your broker that was creating the confusion. you replied, insisting your observations were correct, questioning the validity of my own, and asked me to look up the rules. when you questioned alan's observations as well, it hit a nerve and you got my reply. it's frustrating to see someone disregard multiple inputs on a subject (from a respected trader, no less) when they are not in the right and still hold fast... and especially when one of those inputs was mine, lol. brought out the bully in me

glad you see the light, though. seriously, it's this very ability that does indeed exist now, that reg nms will try to prevent in the future. the sad thing is that in the initial versions of the reg there was an "opt out" clause allowing traders to waive their right to "best execution", taking into consideration the current market state. However, knowing that this would probably seriously spell the end for specialist/nyse liquidity, Thain and co agressively lobbied to get that aspect of the reg removed... and very successfully did so. in the end though, again, it's tough to forsee how it will be implemented, so we'll have to wait and see how it all plays out.

 

[Boy Plunger]

great. another thread gone in the shitter b/c of personal "feelings".

joey, how's it goin? if you find a good floor broker, let us know please. ECN's work very well in most situations for the conditions you cite.

 

[jimrockford]

Another mistake I made came from the fact that I am accustomed to dealing only with market centers to which the trade-thru rule applies. I forgot that sometimes an ECN is not part of the ITS system governed by the trade-thru rule, and while this doesn't affect my trading, other people who do have access to such destinations, outside ITS, would be affected and would be able to trade-thru on those ECNs. I still have my doubts about whether ALL ECNs have a completely unrestrained ability to ignore the trade-thru rule; I think I have gotten contradictory info on this question, but maybe my memory is just wrong.

 

[Dustin]

Quote from jimrockford:

I still have my doubts about whether ALL ECNs have a completely unrestrained ability to ignore the trade-thru rule; I think I have gotten contradictory info on this question, but maybe my memory is just wrong.

With Cyber, Bright, Assent and Genesis you can cross the market in NY stocks any time with any ECN. Just make sure the route-out feature is turned off, and that you aren't using a smart order feature from your broker.

 

[jimrockford]

Quote from Dustin:

With Cyber, Bright, Assent and Genesis you can cross the market in NY stocks any time with any ECN. Just make sure the route-out feature is turned off, and that you aren't using a smart order feature from your broker.

Well, I guess it is sounding more and more like what I have observed is due to my own broker, rather than the ECNs. I have, in the past, attempted to cross NYSE/AMEX, with and without my broker's order router, and it didn't work. Direct-routed ARCA orders, crossing the market, would be rejected and immediately cancelled, for example. Island orders would simply fail to execute or to be displayed, until the market I was attempting to cross removed its quote. My recollection of reading, on ECN websites, that ECNs enforce trade-thru restrictions to the extent they are part of ITS, must have been inaccurate, since it seems you are all unanimous that ECNs do not enforce any trade-thru restrictions whatsoever.