Question for the Athiests

Quote from I am...:

Joy is the truth.

Meanwhile, the religion masked as "the universe" can't be taken seriously. "The universe" is like a drug that the truth takes, to experience hallucinagenic fantasies. The drug of choice is...choice itself...judgement. Judgement fuels fantasy by declaring - grounglessly - that what is not true is true. It's like a choice to shoot yourself in the foot. Judgement has become so automatic - such a kneejerk response - that the "judges" have been imprisoned by their own judgements. Their pounding gavels have become hammers, pounding them down, nailing them down to earth.

This is how "the universe" began, and still runs to this moment in time...which is over. Time is over. Those still "high" on choice choose not to believe it...living on in fantasy land...constructing concepts that make no sense. If it were not so tragic it would be comic. I choose to see the comedy in it, especially whenever stu says something about hippie culture.

Christ has already judged the world: "it is finished". When the judges agree, there will come the "last judgement". The last judgement is the end of fantasy, so it is the end of the world. The end of the world is the end of time.

Christ!
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I'm gonna go get baked and try and read this again, i'll respond later.
 
Quote from thedewar:

To try and state the origin of everything in evolution, or in a god or in goldilocks, or gandalf or whatever tickles your pickle really doesn't matter and in the end comes down to a degree of faith. From an evolutionist perspective you're still left with the idea of why. Why would the big bang occur? Because there was a bunch of matter/energy under compression. Why was that there? Why does anything exist in the first place? Thats where a degree of faith comes in. You can believe a god created everything, or a god created a bunch of compressed matter or energy, or that gandalf the grey waved his staff and fought a balrog and the universe was created out of balrog remains (why was the balrog there in the first place?). In the end everything you try and justify through religion or science or whatever the fuck you wanna classify something as will come down to a degree of uncertainty.

Im personaly in favour of religous belief. In a quantitative fashion its not a be all and end all of thought. But if thought through logically, and taking everythign with a grain of salt, i think it can help to provide a great deal of order, morality, purpose, etc. in someones life.

To validate whether there's a god or not has little impact on some of the positive aspects of religious belief. Aside from the psychotics that bomb abortion clinics, or austricize(sp?) homosexuals or genocide etc. that occurs in the name of religious belief, i think there's alot of positive aspects of a faith base. Many people have reason to no longer abuse drugs, hurt others, they have a reason to wake up every morning. A faith base can help positively impact a person's life in alot of ways. It helps give people an absolute in a completely relative world. It gives people purpose and drive, and can oftentimes help bring people together to make this world a better place.

Overall there's no quantitative way to prove of a gods existence, or of an evolved world of sheer matter, or whatever it is. But to take in the positive socialogical aspects of faith there can be alot of good that it can produce (relative to what your perspective on good is).

I mean even on the off chance in the end a god existed in the fashion you believed, then i guess you win in the end too :P however IMO life in the meantime has a sense of purpose, and oftentimes a degree of fulfillment that can oftentimes be lacking.
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i guess if you dont have to be intellectually honest with yourself and need a crutch to guide your life it can work for you. only one question. which god concieved throughout history do you pick? most of them promise to torture you forever if you make the wrong choice.
 
If you don't believe religion is the product of a primitive mind, go watch shia muslim men ritually beat themselves,

or go watch people 'slain in the spirit' at a Benny Hinn revival.

Scary stuff, humans are really quite dumb en mass.
 
Quote from stu:

I learned a long time ago trolling volumes of meaningless gobbledygook hippy talk is what appeals to you.
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Shhhhhh...
I'm sure it will appeal to jem any day now.

Quote from stu:
Trying to pass utter balderdash off as truth, but in truth only to produce a place for your own version of a God to surreptitiously creep about.
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Is this what passes for real poetry [not pseudo poetry] these days? You are plagiarizing me. This is what I've been saying all along: "The universe" is an attempt to pass utter balderdash off as truth, but in truth only to produce a place for your own version of a God to surreptitiously creep about!

Quote from stu:
Boils down to nothing more than deceit.
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That's what I'm saying! You keep taking the word of God out of my mouth! :mad:

Quote from stu:
No offense, just saying what it is.
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No offense, just saying "the universe" is... not real.

Christ! :D

P.S. - Why can't you people keep "the universe" in your homes and churches?
 
Quote from Barth Vader:

The G-D, whom I believe reveals Himself in scripture, demands the opposite. The knowledge or knowability of the G-D of scripture takes place, not in a free choice, but with a very definite restraint. We must be bound , in our knowledge and seeking of G-D, to His Word in which He gives Himself to us to be known.

For those who enter into the "freedom" of this restraint, the knowability and knowledge of G-D is indeed a fact. If He is known otherwise, other than through this restraint, then this god should be placed upon the shelf with the other entities we have fashioned in our own image.

Respectfully
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You will be bound as you bind others. Dig a pit and you will fall into it...blind, leading the blind. The bible is, like everything in "the universe" a combination of concepts that cannot be reconciled. As such, it is "wheat and tares" which can only be judged as Christ tells the difference. To swallow it whole is like to swallow a camel whole. And yet, the truth is simple, and you strain at it. The bible equates to ancient tribal pop media, much in the same way that stage plays and movies appeal to mass audiences today. The "wheat" in the bible is useful for parables, just as pop media - movies - are useful for parables. Parables point to truth. When the parables are understood and applied, the truth can then be experienced. Here are a few movies with parables that point to truth:

The Matrix
The Village
The Bourne Supremacy

There are many more.

Someone who thinks with the "mind of Christ" could select the useful parables among these that they might serve the masses to whom the stories have mass appeal. Otherwise, the stories are meaningless entertainment.

If Jesus was born in an indian tribe, he would have interpreted the totem pole to mean something other than meaningless myth. Hebrew scriptures equate to a meaningless totem pole unless interpreted to have meaning. Otherwise, it is merely a phallic symbol, worshipped by those who wish to puff themselves up above others...their own personal idol built in the interior factory of their imagination. It does not matter which parts of the bible may be based on history. All of history is a meaningless story, unless interpreted by one who knows how the story begins, and how it ends.

Sorry to be a spoiler.

Christ!
 
Quote from vhehn:

i guess if you dont have to be intellectually honest with yourself and need a crutch to guide your life it can work for you. only one question. which god concieved throughout history do you pick? most of them promise to torture you forever if you make the wrong choice.
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Well like I said to take everything as a literal fact is somewhat absurd, but until something gives me a more solid answer as a foundation for life i really cant agree in "intellectual honesty" as i suppose i'm somewhat post-modernist in my thought, but at a philosophical level i dont find intellectualism to be enough in itself to provide any basis for life.
 
Quote from Barth Vader:

Good morning....

These arguments and positions that I reference, are not "mine" in the sense that I have furthered a concept or work of another, I am simply stating the positions and thoughts, which I have read and agree with, of the great theologians and doctors of the Christian faith.

This "restraint" that is before any who would seek knowledge of, and fellowship with the G-D who proclaims Himself in the scripture, would be as follows:

"..The knowledge of God is wholly and utterly His own readiness to be known by us, grounded in His being and activity. Real man is the man who stands before God because God stands before him....."

The knowability of G-D is not the knowability of G-D if finally, even considered from man's side, it is something other than a work of G-D Himself.

He is the Lord of the event which we call the knowledge of G-D.
He is also the substance of the possibility, presuppositions and conditions of this event.

Once our minds start to determine that this ability to have knowledge of G-D, or extend the knowability beyond that which He Himself has provided us......then we have "jumped" the fence, and are running in the fertile ground of our imaginations, bias, lust and self promotion, and, if I may, any god or no-god, found on the other side of that fence, is built in our own image.
This is the case for christian or skeptic, alike.

"...We can know God in consequence of God knowing Himself - the Father knowing the Son and the Son the Father by the Holy Spirit of the Father and the Son. Because He is first and foremost knowable to Himself as the triune God, He is knowable to us as well. We cannot speak of the knowability of God as an abstract possibility. For it is concretely realised by God Himself, in the Father and in the Son by the Holy Spirit. And by God's revelation we, too, receive and have a part both in His self-knowledge and also in His self-knowability......"

The restraint I speak of, is further clarified:

"...The beginning of our knowledge of God - of this God -is not a beginning which we can make with Him. It can be only the beginning which He has made with us. The sufficiency of our thought-form, and of the perception presupposed in it, and of the word-form based on it, collapses altogether in relation to this God. We are not master of God. Of ourselves we do not resemble God. We are not one with God. We are not capable of conceiving Him. But this means, with a backward reference so to speak, in respect of the views to which our concepts must be related, that no man has ever seen God. What "any man" has seen of himself has always been something other than God. God is invisible. He is invisible to the physical eye of man; He is also invisible to the so-called spiritual. He is not identical with any of the objects which can become the content of our external or inner perception...............No one has ever said, or can say, of himself, in virtue of the dynamic of his words, what God is; God is inexpressible...........For then indeed, as all philosophies and outlooks shew, there is no lack of images of concept, perception or expressions there would have to be if man really knew he had no power to apprehend these quantities.........

But God is invisible and inexpressible because He is not present as the physical and spiritual world created by Him is present, but is present in this world created by Him in His revelation, in Jesus Christ, in the proclamation of His name, in His witness and sacraments. He is , therefore, visible only to faith and can be attested only by faith............"

Quotes are from "Church Dogmatics, Karl Barth, Zurich, 1957"
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"He is, therefore, visible only to faith and can be attested only by faith........"

You have faith that god exists.

There is no fact because you just agreed that it isn't a fact.

Therefore my argument of Frodo and Gandalf being real is just about as legit as your argument of god being real.

Why is it just as legit? The reason is because in order to believe in a god all you have to do is have faith that the god or idol exists. I can easily say that I have faith that Frodo and Gandalf exists and existed so therefore my argument is just as strong as yours.

Barth Vader your long monologues of explanations pertaining to why there is a god only shows your insecurity and lack of evidence when it comes to proving there is a god.

This is your one and only argument for proving there is a god- "I believe in god and so therefore he exists."

This is my one and only argument for proving that Frodo and Gandalf existed- "I believe that Frodo and Gandalf existed so therefore they existed."

I am a very big fan of religion and the morality it inspires people to have but honestly I cannot bring myself to believe in a god with so little reasoning behind it.
 
Quote from I am...:

Joy is the truth.

Meanwhile, the religion masked as "the universe" can't be taken seriously. "The universe" is like a drug that the truth takes, to experience hallucinagenic fantasies. The drug of choice is...choice itself...judgement. Judgement fuels fantasy by declaring - grounglessly - that what is not true is true. It's like a choice to shoot yourself in the foot. Judgement has become so automatic - such a kneejerk response - that the "judges" have been imprisoned by their own judgements. Their pounding gavels have become hammers, pounding them down, nailing them down to earth.

This is how "the universe" began, and still runs to this moment in time...which is over. Time is over. Those still "high" on choice choose not to believe it...living on in fantasy land...constructing concepts that make no sense. If it were not so tragic it would be comic. I choose to see the comedy in it, especially whenever stu says something about hippie culture.

Christ has already judged the world: "it is finished". When the judges agree, there will come the "last judgement". The last judgement is the end of fantasy, so it is the end of the world. The end of the world is the end of time.

Christ!
More...

Faith is not truth. Faith is faith.

Thats the problem.

Don't you have faith in god I am?

Having faith and having truth is quite a different thing.

I don't have faith in the presence of my left hand because I KNOW of the presence of my left hand.

You cannot have faith in something being reality when you know it is reality and you cannot know something is reality when you only have faith that it is reality.

So what is it I am? Do you have faith that god exists or do you know god exists? Or if you don't want to answer honestly than you can go on looking like a living paradox.
 
Quote from I am...:

No offense, just saying "the universe" is... not real.
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Quite, and the deceit is in the volumes of double speak hippy bullshit you feel obliged to muster in attempt to conceal your nonsense.
 
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