Qualifications for a Black Box/HFT Programmer?

[Stoxtrader]

Quote from Mike10:

Do you have to have a BS, MS, or PHD in a Computer or Quant related field? What if you have an unrelated degree and learn code writing (C, C++, Java, etc.) on your own? Can you get a job as a black-box programmer if you learn these skills? What type of compensation would there be for someone like this without a related degree? How in demand is code writing, software engineering in the financial arena and outside that area?

I hope these aren't too many questions. I appreciate any info any of you can provide.

What path to take? Depends on what you like to do and what you are good at. If you enjoy and are good at school, go to a top 10 school and get at PhD. If you enjoy and are good at work, find a foot-in-the-door job. If you enjoy and are good at networking/schmoozing, move to Chicago or New York and start talking to people.

If you worried about compensation, check the bureau of labor statistics site. Financial specialization is probably not the best to get into, but yeah in engineering/programming it is a good plan to have a specialization in mind. (I am a software engineer/architect for enterprise web applications, for example.)

If you are worried about *having* to go to school, don't. My degree is in Communications. Yes it was slightly harder to get that first job, but after 2-3 years of working in the (software development) field, experience became way more important than any piece of paper from a school.

If you are worried about demand/labor market, become a doctor or lawyer. As a backup plan you could be a nurse or pharmacist or veterinarian instead of a doctor, or a paralegal instead of a lawyer.

 

[ScoobyStoo]

Quote from Stoxtrader:

Look at the graphs not the words. This is inaccurate: "Why would any company hire a computer programmer with the wrong skills for a salary of $150,000, when it can hire a fresh graduate—with no skills—for around $60,000?" The graphs contradict these numbers. Additionally there was recently a story about Flash developers making $150,000. Hot technologies (Flash, iPhone, Android, cloud/grid) will always command higher salaries.

The graphs make sense to me. Where's the contradiction?

Got the URL for that story? Interested to see what niche is allowing Flash monkeys to charge themselves out at $150 grand a year. I can get an expert Flash coder for about £30-35k without any problems.

Hot techs provide short term big money opportunities for developers but, like most supply/demand imbalances, if the demand is there then supply usually catches up pretty quick. iPhone coders were in short supply at the beginning of the year. Then every coder with a weekend free sat down and taught themselves Objective C and guess what...iPhone coding contracts now offer the same daily rates as standard web dev contracts.

Add to all this the fact that as you get older it takes longer to learn new stuff (sadly this has now been medically proven) and that family commitments take more of your time...

Whilst you are taking the kids to football practice on a Saturday morning the 21 year old fresh grad is sat at home reading the latest whitepapers. He comes into the office eulogising about the new tech on Monday morning whilst you are more concerned with making sure you get the kids to school.

And all this is without getting started on the issues of offshoring etc.

Safest option if you want to stay a techie is to specialise in a niche product. Get a ton of experience in something like Marketview or Charles River. Those coders always command about £600-750 a day because of their specialist nature.

 

[Mike10]

Thank you Stoxtrader. So the demand for software developers is pretty good if you know what you're doing? I've heard varied things about the legal market - that it's over saturated, etc. I was thinking about becoming a tax/bankruptcy lawyer.

 

[Stoxtrader]

Quote from ScoobyStoo:


The graphs make sense to me. Where's the contradiction?

The article states that $60,000 programmers go on to make $150,000. How does the graph demonstrate this?

http://tctechcrunch.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/brown-and-linden-1.png

Quote from ScoobyStoo:


Got the URL for that story? Interested to see what niche is allowing Flash monkeys to charge themselves out at $150 grand a year. I can get an expert Flash coder for about £30-35k without any problems.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703846604575447600001479266.html?ru=yahoo&mod=yahoo_hs

Your definition of "expert" is probably different. These are not codemonkeys.

Quote from ScoobyStoo:


Safest option if you want to stay a techie is to specialise in a niche product. Get a ton of experience in something like Marketview or Charles River. Those coders always command about £600-750 a day because of their specialist nature.

Agree on specialization. I heard of someone who, after 1 year of experience with Great Plains and e-commerce experience, became a Great Plains consultant making $150+ per hour. So I suppose, in addition to being a specialist and being somewhat competent, it helps to be a great bullshitter.

 

[ScoobyStoo]

Quote from Stoxtrader:

The article states that $60,000 programmers go on to make $150,000. How does the graph demonstrate this?

http://tctechcrunch.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/brown-and-linden-1.png

I didn't interpret the article as saying that. It says...

"Why would any company hire a computer programmer with the wrong skills for a salary of $150,000, when it can hire a fresh graduate—with no skills—for around $60,000?"

The graph simply shows the typical salary progression for 3 centile groups.

Quote from Stoxtrader:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703846604575447600001479266.html?ru=yahoo&mod=yahoo_hs

Your definition of "expert" is probably different. These are not codemonkeys.

Interesting read. This article applies to The Valley though where the remuneration structures are completely divorced from reality and swing way wide of anywhere else on the planet. I'd be inclined to take this article more seriously if (a) it wasn't published by the WSJ and (b) the sample data wasn't courtesy of a headhunter who has a vested interest in talking up the numbers. Would be genuinely interesting to see how many Flash guys out there are actually bringing in $150k a year.

Worth noting that the article says...

"It is particularly difficult to find Flash engineers who have both an artistic and computer-science background, say executives. While there are many Flash designers with experience in artistic elements, few are trained in areas such as power and battery management, they note."

Like we both said, the real big coin is made from specialising.

Quote from Stoxtrader:

I heard of someone who, after 1 year of experience with Great Plains and e-commerce experience, became a Great Plains consultant making $150+ per hour. So I suppose, in addition to being a specialist and being somewhat competent, it helps to be a great bullshitter.

That's what being a consultant is all about. The chat. It's all about the client's perception of you. When I first became a consultant I remember one of my early mentors telling me, "Your job, first and foremost, is to sell more consultancy."

Here's a true story for you. When I first started in this industry back in the 90s I turned up for work on my first day as a junior developer for a mid sized consultancy. I was given a copy of 'HTML For Dummies' and told to spend a couple of weeks learning HTML. Once I'd been through the book and had a read around the nascent web I was placed on a project team developing the first website for a major UK retail bank. It wasn't until a few months later when I saw the invoices going to the client that I found out I was being billed out by my employer at £100 an hour. I think was earning £16 grand a year at the time. Ludicrous eh?

A few years later the bottom fell out of the market. Remember when this image did the rounds?

All I'm saying is that getting old in the software development market place is tough unless you either have management experience or a specialist arrow in your quiver.

 

[HowardCohodas]

Quote from ScoobyStoo:

This is so very true. Past the age of 35 you need to either be an expert in a niche area or making your way up the management ladder. If you are still a Senior Developer or Tech Architect when you hit 40 then you are in the shit really. Coding within the corporate world is a game for the young uns.

Hmmm. I received my patent and developed my best selling product after the age of 55. Of course, I've been a software engineer since I was 19.

Many of the "programmers" at HFT firms have advanced degrees in mathematics. It's the math more than the programming that gives these firms their edge. That and supercomputers.