PUT options liquidated at worst possible prices

IBj,

maybe you can answer this since noone in ib seem to provide an answer. This is purely for info.

the issue of liq engine unbalancing a hedged option position aside, why does it auto liquidate es mini options in afterhours when there is extremely wide bid ask spread instead of waiting until market open the next day?

Es mini is based off sp500 which is based off NYSE/nasadq that closes at 4pm. So what is the reason ib auto liq es mini options in after hours using market order causing significant loss for the clients due to the spread

thanks
 
...well i see all the defender crew are back slappin and throwin our buddy from the north under the bus....
....but i aint buyin it....plus there is so much smoke blowin in the post that ib's meaculpa is lost in the fine print...

"IB will address the execution points privately with the client (off this thread) as part of a normal complaint resolution. "
"Last Thursday exposed several places where IB can improve its risk management systems. Liquidation processes will also be improved. I expect the first of these changes to start rolling out within a month."
"IB's risk management system is expressly designed to automatically liquidate deficient accounts."

Quote from IBj:

I read through the thread trying to gather all the comments, misunderstandings, genuine informational gaps, etc. As is often the case on long threads, there are a lot of posts based on poor/incomplete information and assumptions. Here is an attempt to clarify matters:

(1) What caused the liquidations
The liquidations were NOT caused by the valuation on the options, nor on option margin. As some posters have pointed out, there is no equity value for options in a regT account, and the margin for a long vertical options spread is zero.

The OP/client had other positions in the account that caused the initial margin deficit. The liquidations were triggered by the client carrying a leveraged position many times the value of the account (measured in net liq) in a non-base currency. The long non-base currency fell 1.8% during the trading session creating a situation where his cash value (measured in his base currency) was less than the margin requirement for the currency position, thereby triggering a liquidation need. By the time the liquidations were done, the currency had moved 3.6%, a giant move.

By example:
* position at beginning of trading session: -100K USD, +103K XXX @ 1.00. This account has a margin requirement of 2500 USD, and is covered by the excess 3K measured in the base currency USD.
* position at time of liquidations: -100K USD, +103K XXX @ 0.98 (XXX/USD). Now the value of XXX is only 100.9K expressed in USD, so total cash value is only 0.9K USD. Margin requirement is still 2.5% of the debit 100K USD, i.e. 2500. Margin requirement exceeds capital, so liquidation requirement is triggered.


(2) Quality of liquidations
The liquidations executed before the market began its serious melt at ~14:25 were fine. The ones executed during the freefall that began 2 minutes later and lasted ~45 minutes were not so good.

To understand the execution quality, you have to look at the market data and it is pretty evident that the market was in chaos with option spreads 30X wider than normal (ex: 3.85 bid / 9.00 ask). Under these circumstances -- during arguably the most violent market moves in history -- execution quality for all orders was problematic, both for customer initiated and IB initiated orders. all asset classes were affected: stocks, options, futures, currencies, bonds.

IB will address the execution points privately with the client (off this thread) as part of a normal complaint resolution.

(3) Method of execution
IB has a preferred liquidation sequence depending on the reason for the liquidation. For margin deficiencies, we typically look to futures/FOPs first, then other commodity segment derivatives, stocks and equity segment derivatives, then currencies. For money driven liquidations (certain accounts/segments are not permitted to have negative cash), the sequence is to sell instruments that generate cash. There are other algorithms and prioritization logic as well. We don't so far have algorithms that liquidate "strategies" using combos because many exchanges do not accept combination orders.

In total, the question of which position to liquidate can be non-trivial as there may be conflicting priorities: do the thing that creates most margin benefit, or the one that has the tightest bid-ask spread (implying the smallest pnl-to-mid), or one that reduces risk the most (not the same as reducing margin the most), or the one that reduces leverage the most. There is no "right answer" for all situations. In this case, in hindsight, I can come up with a better liquidation process.

Summary:

1) Maintain substantial excess financial capacity. The poster who always leaves 30% excess: yes. In volatile market conditions, even more because we saw moves on Thursday that are 1 in 2M types of events, and even 30% gets quickly eaten up in such situations. Having excess financial capacity is the best way to avoid liquidations. Unfortunately, the client/OP did not have substantial excess given the degree of leverage in the currency positions.

2) Last Thursday exposed several places where IB can improve its risk management systems. Liquidation processes will also be improved. I expect the first of these changes to start rolling out within a month.

3) IB's risk management system is expressly designed to automatically liquidate deficient accounts. While automation is key to our whole business model, we also have people 24x6 continuously looking at the risk systems and pending liquidations; they find situations where we feel it appropriate to interrupt the automated process. But when the markets are free-falling, IB personnel cannot manually supervise the close out transactions in individual portfolios because there simply is no time to evaluate and execute alternative liquidation methods.

IB does not want to liquidate anyone's account. It is bad for the client, bad for IB (hence this thread). We do it because regulations stipulate how much leverage can be granted, and not doing so can often be far worse financially for both the client, IB, and ultimately, other customers (because they indirectly inherit the credit risk of failed accounts). To repeat myself, having sufficient capital for the degree of leverage in your account is the best way to avoid liquidation/close out risk.
 
Quote from Illum:

Mods please think about... deleting this disaster. We got taken in, lets put this mess behind us.

most of us learned about margin and IB procedures.
 
....did you actually read the ib post?.....deletion is not the solution...


Quote from Illum:

Mods please think about... deleting this disaster. We got taken in, lets put this mess behind us.
 
Quote from traderlux:

...well i see all the defender crew are back slappin and throwin our buddy from the north under the bus....
....but i aint buyin it....plus there is so much smoke blowin in the post that ib's meaculpa is lost in the fine print...

"IB will address the execution points privately with the client (off this thread) as part of a normal complaint resolution. "
"Last Thursday exposed several places where IB can improve its risk management systems. Liquidation processes will also be improved. I expect the first of these changes to start rolling out within a month."
"IB's risk management system is expressly designed to automatically liquidate deficient accounts."

"traderlux


Registered: Aug 2009
Posts: 155


05-10-10 07:28 PM

good insight, i wonder just how much of a profit center for ib the auto-bot is. owners probably lovingly pet its bot-butt every nite and day as it goes out harvesting 24/7 from the heavy foot crowd."

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2835294#post2835294
_______________
your lack of credibility was established quite awhile ago.
 
on the contrary I think it has been a very informational thread. I'm glad IB came on to provide the info the OP neglected to mention which everyone was skeptical of anyway.

I do think the spike really does point to the questionable practice of "auto liquidation". As the spokesman pointed out things went well until the downdraft. Still the OP should not have lost as much as he did.... plain and simple. There really needs to be curbs much like trading curbs to allow the ship to right itself. I actually didn't even look at my positions on Thurs because I knew my broker would not auto liquidate and I would have time to sort things out over the weekend. Had I been with IB I think I would have an ulcer.
 
Quote from stefan_777:

somedudetrader, you have some splainin' to do about this non-base currency position.
he mentioned in this thread that he was in canada, i wasnt aware of the currency exchange watch but it makes sense
 
Quote from RichardRimes:

on the contrary I think it has been a very informational thread. I'm glad IB came on to provide the info the OP neglected to mention which everyone was skeptical of anyway.

I do think the spike really does point to the questionable practice of "auto liquidation". As the spokesman pointed out things went well until the downdraft. Still the OP should not have lost as much as he did.... plain and simple. There really needs to be curbs much like trading curbs to allow the ship to right itself. I actually didn't even look at my positions on Thurs because I knew my broker would not auto liquidate and I would have time to sort things out over the weekend. Had I been with IB I think I would have an ulcer.

one more day and your broker may have been in liquidation.ever trade futures limit down everyday. maybe not exactly comparable but close enough. I would not want to deal with your broker.care to name him?
 
Quote from atticus:

Jim, the only position he carried with any variation-margin was a USDCAD long which was up on PNL for the day. And if it was losing, why didn't IB liq the FX? You're wasting your time here. IB is unlikely to admit on a message-board that their systems are shit.

Your post is ironic, as I stated it, many posts before yours, that he must have had other positions that forced the call; long stock gapping >25% lower, FX, etc. The OP has outlined his positions:

- Small USDCAD long which was well within his haircut and profitable on the day

- SPY bear vertical

- Another bear vertical, don't recall the ticker.

The simple dissection leaves the USDCAD as the only position requiring a haircut, and it was not liquidated, nor should it have been.

Atticus,

The OP was lying to us all along. His first disclosure of his positions mentioned an unspecified amount of cash, but never mentioned any FX position. The OP later claimed the FX position was small, when in fact, as IBj has revealed, OP's FX position was many times the size of the account's value, and existed for the purpose of margining his huge options position. The OP also claimed the FX position was moving in his favor that day, when in fact, as IBj has revealed, the FX position was moving against him by a massive amount. OP also failed to inform us that that the value of his put spreads was many times the size of his account, and that he was heavily leveraged; and I say that his omission of that information was intentionally deceptive. His bogus excuse, for not giving additional details, was the need to protect the privacy and security of his account.

The OP was clearly at fault for violating IB's margin rules, and for misusing this forum and all of us, in an effort to damage IB's reputation, so as to pressure IB into covering the OP's gambling debts.
 
Back
Top