psyche issues

Quote from knowledgebone:

I have been trading at a NYC prop firm for about two months now. I know that many of you are probably thinking that I work in a shitty chop shop, etc, etc, but the reality is, I work for a good guy who trains all of us and acts as our mentor. That being said, my post has nothing to do any of that I just wanted to put that on the table so we are all on the same page. My post is regarding my head. I am in a serious slump right now and it is really messing with me. My confidence is at an all-time low and I looking for answers. I know that there probably isn't an "answer" but I would really appreciate any suggestions that you guys coukld give me to cope with this. I know that I have not been doing this for very long and that it takes time to get good, its just very frusterating walking away 80% of the time a loser (even if it isn;t my own money). Any advice you guys can give me would be much appreciated. Thanks
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KnowledgeBone,

This may sound trite if you are persuaded that the problem you are facing is unique and deeply related to the psychology of trading, but here's a different approach, a bit more fundamental than esoteric, just in case:

First, make sure your body and mind feel good - get sufficient (lots of) exercise, eat well, and spend time with positive people you like and who like you.

Second, keep learning either from papertrading, or your mentor or books/seminars, or all of the above.

Third, you need to get some success under your belt - start small, use a system/method you trust with the most discipline you can bring to bear, get some positive numbers (however small) on your ledger.

Success will come gradually but surely if you keep this approach. Best of luck to you :)
 
Dude,

I'd try to identify some stocks you can trade over and over again. Using screens is like flushing quail...a whole bunch spring up in front of you and you end up filling the sky with birdshot but don't down any birds. Try finding some issues that you can watch and get to know them. After you have a stable of stocks then your nightly reviews can focus on which look to be the most tradable next day.

Bruce:cool:
 
Quote from knowledgebone:

The basic methodology we use is defined in our filters that bring up stocks based on technical info. At first I am only supposed to be trading these market inefficiencies. Obviously as we get better we are taught more stratregies/patterns but he wants to ease us into this game. Basically wehen stocks pop up on the filter (i.e. a gap down on large volume etc, etc) I either play it or don't It simple. I share my filters with about 20 other guys and most of them make money (except for us newbies).
I KNOW that I am supposed to be losing money. I understand that it is part of learning this trade. My mentor says what I am going through is normal and I should expect to feel like this for a while. I do not think he is being a pessimist but rather a pragmatist
As for prior trading experience, I have none. All of the other guys that started with me are down as well (as expected). I would also agree with you that I do have many internal conflicts going on. I am an intense guy with high expectations.
I hope that I gave you some info to glean from. If there is anything else you need to help "diagnose" me, or whatever, please ask. Thanks a lot for your input guys.
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Here goes...

When you say...

Obviously as we get better we are taught more stratregies/patterns but he wants to ease us into this game.

The above statement tells me your mentor is in control. If a mentor is showing you how to trade via sharing a few strategies (a good way to start by the way instead of dumping everything in your lap all at once)...

they should also be concentrating on your discipline in executing trades by the plan because when your only trading a few strategies or patterns...

you need a great deal more discipline to trade properly.

This can creat extra stress or conflicts when your subconscious is already aware of other profitable trading tools your not allowed to use...

not that I'm saying your mentor saids you can only do this and not do something else.

It simple. I share my filters with about 20 other guys and most of them make money (except for us newbies).

Research the above situation very carefully and find out exactly what those other traders...more experience...are doing with the same info you have that's making them money and while your not making money.

I KNOW that I am supposed to be losing money. I understand that it is part of learning this trade. My mentor says what I am going through is normal and I should expect to feel like this for a while.

I strongly disagree. If you have a successful mentor (he better be successful or its a case of the blind leading the blind)...he should be guiding you into some wins to help build your confidence.

Also...I've never worked at a prop firm and I'm not sure if your term of mentor is the same as my definition.

Here's my definition: A mentor will work with you one-on-one or in a small group. First showing you in realtime in front of your own two eyes how it is done via his/her own trading account.

Sometimes called lead by example.

Next...that mentor will provide guidance in some of your own trades...from start to finish.

Leaving a newbie on their own or rehashing end of the day results without any guidance during the trading day is unacceptable.

I would also agree with you that I do have many internal conflicts going on. I am an intense guy with high expectations.

Being intense with high expectations is not an internal conflict.

Here's an example of an internal conflict...you see a buy signal...exactly what your mentor told you about...you begin second guessing what has been taught to you so far...

you either hesitate and enter the trade late or you don't pull the trigger.

Once again...maybe mentors at prop firms are completely different from what I expect them to be.

Yet, I stand by my words...a mentor does not let a student go into a losing streak nor a drawdown.

(mentors are suppose to be successful traders at the minimum...good teachers would be a bonus)

Look at it this way...if you were a retail trader on your own (not at a prop firm) and you paid hundreds or thousands of dollars to be mentored by some trader...

during that mentorship you're in a trading slump and loosing confidence fast while the mentor is still working with you...

ask for your money back.

What do you think General Managers of Baseball, Football or Hockey teams do when their teams...full of great players...are in a slump or losing streak...

they usually fire the coach and bring in a new guy.

Usually the only time the coach stays is when the team is full of sucky players...in that case...the General Manager gets fired and not the coach :cool:

(sorry...I couldn't resist the sports analogy)

Its critical you get a few wins under your belt with some extra guidance from your mentor...

a mentor that has lost a student in the psychological arena will increase the odds of a failed education program between mentor and student.

Simply...if there are successful traders at your prop firm...you should be exploiting that and not feel like your in this game by yourself.

Take a break and watch closely how the successful traders are doing it...sit side by side with them a day or two (if that's allowed and someone is willing)...

once again...I'm not aware of how things are done inside a prop firm...maybe everybody there are competing against each other and don't want to share the real stuff.

Also...don't underestimate what Yannis said below...

Quote from Yannis:



KnowledgeBone,

...a bit more fundamental than esoteric, just in case:

First, make sure your body and mind feel good - get sufficient (lots of) exercise, eat well, and spend time with positive people you like and who like you...

Success will come gradually but surely if you keep this approach. Best of luck to you :)
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NihabaAshi
 
nihabaAshi,

Thank you for your insight. As for my mentor, he does not work with us everyday in real-time. We have a 3 hour class a week and he is always willing and open to answer questions. Aside from this, everynight we hand in our daily p/l which he looks and comments on. Usually his comments are insightful and helpful. My training class is 5 people so it is manageable in terms of attention. Also, I am pretty aggressive in terms of question asking as you can probably surmise from all of my postings. As for your comment about giving me trades, he will not do that yet. I think as our relationship strengthens this will not be the case but we shall see. If reality though, I do not know if giving me trades would be the best thing. Where is the satisfaction in that? He gives us strategies which we are expected to mold into our own "proprietary" trading method. Either way, thanks a lot for being so helpful. If you have any other pieces of advice I am all ears.
 
knowledgebone,

NihabaAshi is giving you some great advice and, imo, you, of course, should listen to it.

However, I have not understood what the main problem is yet. You need to know that clearly, or else you'll miss the opportunity to solve it. Remember, if we don't know where we are going, any road will take us there... (but where?) So, let me try:

Is it psychological (e.g., something inside your head or belly is not working as it should and you are slow/ineffective/undisciplined/reluctant to trade?) No shame here - I made a whole bunch in 1999 and lost it in 2000 and you can understand what happened to my psychology... we all have our demons and we must face them before we get good at this. There are techniques to face that, and there has been a lot posted on this board about them.

Is it relationship oriented - like this mentor or the philosophy of the prop shop you work at? Is it your impression that they are pushing you too fast without enough guidance? I don't know much about prop shops but many people here understand them and could help you out.

Is it results oriented - like you think you have a good technique but you do not make any money off it? I know a lot about that, like many others here. There may be a path of action having to do with insisting that your mentor explain things better or be a bit more patient wrt results. But I agree with NihabaAshi that you should not be depleting your capital while learning the ropes. Take it slowly and if they are not willing to give you the opportunity to learn, find another place to trade.

Of course, there's a lot of interrelationship and feedback among these three things. But, let me assume, for now, that it is the third item above that's giving you pause. Well, here are some thoughts - and forgive me if they are too basic for you... just let me know if they hit the spot or you feel you are more advanced that that.

As I have written elsewhere on this board, this summer I am training my 14 year old son to trade. Of course he is not trading with real money, he's using one of the better (real) simulators out there, but nevertheless there may be something useful here. Being a smart kid :) he went through a couple of trading books and two of the most popular CD-based techniques that one can buy out there (let me not mention names, PM me if you are interested) in 6 days.

Then, I gave him his first assignment: using a popular scanning tool, find a small number of stocks that are trending well and (sim)trade them using a simple MA crossover method. I gave him the 5/15/50 SMA and the 5 min chart, and explained some other possibilities too. He quickly ended up with the 3/5/20 EMA and the 2 min chart. In addition to those, the chart also has the 14 period ADX at the bottom, to make sure the stock is trending. He's free to set profit targets and stop losses or trade the crossovers directly or both. After two losses, stop and understand what happened and change stock. etc etc.

He thinks this is Nintendo with money on it... he's done it for 3 days this week and he's been positive (not much, but +$) every day.

My question is, what if you just did that - papertrade, use a simulator, or use Ensign's playback feature, or trade just 100 shares for just a single stock... your pick. Can you confirm that you'll be positive at the end of the day?

Increase the number of stocks - what happens then? Why?

See where I'm taking you? There is science here - locate the issue and dissect it, analyze it to its component parts to understand it. Solutions will then follow.

Suppose that after a week of doing what I said above you cannot produce positive results - then, imo, consider running. Maybe you will be a brilliant surgeon or an honest politician (now, here's an oxymoron :) ) but you'll have a hard time being a happy trader.

Suppose you do well at this. Great, switch to a better technique (this one is as elementary as they come) and gradually increase the odds. Keep analyzing and improving.

And don't forget what I said in my previous message - good nutrition, exercise, rest, meditation if you will, positivity in your life.

Does this make sense?

PS. Here's an excellent reference from NQoos, member of ET: http://www.nqoos.com/Steps_to_Be_a_Profitable_Trader.htm take a look and if it helps you, send its author a thank you note :)

 
hang in there.

learn from your mistakes.... I've kept a daily journal (if not every few hours).

I try to write programs & macros to expedite the redundant comments, so that the points are almost fill in. don't ever want to be caught writing while the market is turning on you.

sounds like you may be in a buy and hold situation....... very tough, since this market has been more of a short trader's market. I've become more of a swing trader w/ occasional scalps.

this is an exciting field to be and remember, emotions, run the market (it helps having maps, e.g. knowledge of the fundamentals and technicals).

I personally just trade on ONE issue. The stock I trade has 34 million + average daily volume (yeah it's over $12), so my daily 5-23 k of shares traded often goes unnoticed (especially in the first few hours of trading).

choose a strategy & be critical of your occasional misgivings.... use that journal..... to make an error is human; to repeat errors is foolish.
 
Quote from jeremysnow:


I try to write programs & macros to expedite the redundant comments, so that the points are almost fill in. don't ever want to be caught writing while the market is turning on you.
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Did you ever stop to think that the redundant comments are either the repetition of positives or negatives. Alot can be said about typing in the same comment. You may find a weakness (negative) coming back to haunt you over and over again. While the strengths (positives) are not getting the acknowledgement they need to increase your confidence. Give it a try.
 
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