lol, please spare me this bs. Posts like this ensure I will never ever in my lifetime host with you. How creepy. Seriously dude, there are people out there who murder for 1000 USD. Can you believe it? So, tell me you can guarantee nobody of your employees does not steal code for 100,000 USD? If you dont have employees how can you proof you won't be in financial trouble, have a sick son who needs medical treatment and your business is close to going bankrupt and that you are not tempted to take a peek and possible sell couple gems to those who know how to use such code? Do you have proof? Of course you dont, and you dont need to but please respect others for being skeptical and cautious in a natural way.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Protecting your strategies
- Thread starter gmst
- Start date
you are wet behind the ears in the same way that you looked like a complete beginner in the systematic trading optimization thread a while ago.
Regarding your comments about retail traders you show an amazing lack of intellect as well: Why do you think all those bucket shops run "trading competitions" where you are only eligible to enter if you host your strategy on a "secure" server with them. How about MT5, how about many other shady Russian retail charting packages (I will not name them here) that have algorithms built in to harvest strategy ideas? How about shady retail brokers that offer to host your strategies on their servers for proximity hosting purposes (please do not make me laugh out loud, it just sounds funny: proximity hosting in combination with EL strategy code, or Ninja Trader strategies...;-)
Whether it is worth it and whether they find something of value is an entirely different story. Fact remains that yes, there are uncountable situations where retail brokerages, vendors, data services, and the like have attempted to steal code. If you deny that then it only shows how little you actually know about financial services. Case closed!
Regarding your comments about retail traders you show an amazing lack of intellect as well: Why do you think all those bucket shops run "trading competitions" where you are only eligible to enter if you host your strategy on a "secure" server with them. How about MT5, how about many other shady Russian retail charting packages (I will not name them here) that have algorithms built in to harvest strategy ideas? How about shady retail brokers that offer to host your strategies on their servers for proximity hosting purposes (please do not make me laugh out loud, it just sounds funny: proximity hosting in combination with EL strategy code, or Ninja Trader strategies...;-)
Whether it is worth it and whether they find something of value is an entirely different story. Fact remains that yes, there are uncountable situations where retail brokerages, vendors, data services, and the like have attempted to steal code. If you deny that then it only shows how little you actually know about financial services. Case closed!
Quote from logic_man:
Shit, I really do want to get away from this thread because it's full retard, but I'd rather not let my statements get mischaracterized.
You are talking about professionals trying to steal from other professionals, not brokers trying to steal from retail traders.
At least stick to the original thesis I was calling paranoid if you are going to criticize my position.
I already admitted that "corporate espionage", which I would say your example amounts to, exists and part of the reason we know it exists is because people get caught and prosecuted for it. But the OP of this thread wasn't talking about someone who was working in the context of interviewing at a hedge fund to become a PM and may have been suckered out of some IP, he was talking about a retail trader who was having some success but then worried that his success would draw attention from others, up to and including the possibility they'd try to steal his strategy. That was the only hypothetical I was discussing. If the thread was about whether or not you should divulge details in a discussion with a hedge fund you are interviewing with, any response from me would have been totally different. It's amazing just how little your response actually addresses anything I've said. It's like you were responding to someone else who said something else.
Don't make me out to be some wet-behind-the-ears kid who doesn't know that every single word said or not said in the context of speaking with the money sharks matters, because that's completely untrue. In those situations, paranoia is entirely justifiable. The guy with the retail account at IB probably can rest easy at night, though, because I doubt any hedge funds will be installing keystroke monitors on his computer via the Stuxnet virus any time soon.
Quote from WinstonTJ:
It's threads like this that make my business next to impossible to grow. All it does is fuel the paranoia over getting strategies stolen. Are there scumbags out there - of course but not everyone.
I host servers & provide connectivity for a couple of legit market making firms as well as a couple mid/small hedge funds (and a few trusting individual traders). They have no problem with trust or paying me every month. I don't even know if I have access to their source code or strategies, I have admin & backup rights over all their stuff so probably... I know I can see pretty much everything that the NYSE guys have just because of compliance & reporting - but I have better things to do and I'm so much happier not trading anymore.
My business would be great if I could add 15-25 more individuals or small groups... but they are all PARANOID and think that someone is out to get them.
Please read this 100 times if needed to get it through your head:
I want you to pay me for IT related services. I want to take your money and as much of it as possible... BUT I can't take blood from a stone just like you can't pay me if you aren't profitable. It is in my best interest for you to make millions or billions of dollars so that you can pay me and I can earn a living.
Please understand that there are scumbags out there - but the paranoia isn't justified.
100% Agree. And if someone Fails in trading, it is certainly not because the strategy has been stolen. Some People use it to Point their fingers at someone else to blame others for their failure (95% lose over the long run).
A good and Successful Trader will ALWAYS make Money - no matter how many People know about the strategy.
Pro, the question is not whether a good trader will always make money -- of course they will. I had a friend of mine who found a fascinating niche in the travel industry and built it into a bonanza. He then discovered that two of his employees had found a way to fleece him for about $100,000 over a year.
He documented it, had them arrested and recovered the funds plus interest on a three year payout. Each of them were later victims of their own bad karma ... both were mugged and suffered brutal (but in no way life threatening) beatings shortly after the three year payout was completed. Karma truly is a bitch.
My point is that all the while they were stealing from him he was not only making money, he was making a great deal of money. More money then he ever dreamed his niche would ever be able to generate. Nonetheless there was a leak that needed to be plugged.
He documented it, had them arrested and recovered the funds plus interest on a three year payout. Each of them were later victims of their own bad karma ... both were mugged and suffered brutal (but in no way life threatening) beatings shortly after the three year payout was completed. Karma truly is a bitch.
My point is that all the while they were stealing from him he was not only making money, he was making a great deal of money. More money then he ever dreamed his niche would ever be able to generate. Nonetheless there was a leak that needed to be plugged.
Quote from ProTrader432:
100% Agree. And if someone Fails in trading, it is certainly not because the strategy has been stolen. Some People use it to Point their fingers at someone else to blame others for their failure (95% lose over the long run).
A good and Successful Trader will ALWAYS make Money - no matter how many People know about the strategy.
Quote from OddTrader:
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=231864&perpage=40&pagenumber=4
Many thanks Epic. I think your another comment above would be also very helpful.
Do you still allow that remaining client having trading access in real-time?
No. I don't see any reason why anyone would need to follow in real-time for an extended period unless they are trying to copy trades. That was just to give them a little feel for the program.
This happens all the time. Did you read the article on google employee stealing PPC keywords from somebody who was making alot of money with it? Yes he was convicted but this shows money can corrupt where you least expect it.
According to www.cmegroup.com
"Issues and Insights for Starting a CTA Business"
Q
Transparency
Transparency is a delicate issue between a manager and investor.
Some investors insist on separately managed accounts not only
to achieve complete transparency, but also to have ultimate
control over the account. Many other investors are satisfied being
in a pooled vehicle. CTAs who are not overly concerned about
outsiders analyzing their trading in order to âreverse-engineerâ
their process, may provide complete transparency. More often,
all customers receive periodic snapshots of positions with an
agreement that investors may check on the portfolio whenever
they desire. Open communication with investors is in many ways
more important than mechanical transparency.
UQ
"Issues and Insights for Starting a CTA Business"
Q
Transparency
Transparency is a delicate issue between a manager and investor.
Some investors insist on separately managed accounts not only
to achieve complete transparency, but also to have ultimate
control over the account. Many other investors are satisfied being
in a pooled vehicle. CTAs who are not overly concerned about
outsiders analyzing their trading in order to âreverse-engineerâ
their process, may provide complete transparency. More often,
all customers receive periodic snapshots of positions with an
agreement that investors may check on the portfolio whenever
they desire. Open communication with investors is in many ways
more important than mechanical transparency.
UQ