prospect theory

Quote from Gordon Gekko:

THINK OF WHAT AN EDGE REALLY IS.

an edge is defining when most people will over-react (due to emotions) in one direction. the more timeframes people are over-reacting on at the same time, the better for you.

if you find an edge, then what you've really done is defined a point which on your timeframe, for whatever reasons, a lot of people (even ones that trade different timeframes than you) have all over-reacted (because of human emotions) the same way too far in one direction. maybe your analysis is not so good that you can predict for sure that you are right, but it may be good enough that if you correctly act appropriately at that point over many times, you can make money over time. THAT'S WHAT AN EDGE IS.

in my head i know exactly what i'm talking about, it's just hard to put into words.

A so-called edge is knowing that you will make the correct choices more often than not... thus obtaining a high batting average. It is mastering your craft such that you put yourself in a position to win each day... each year.

How do you obtain this edge... among other ways... via hard work, smart work, preparation, balance...

....and most importantly learning to trust yourself. This latter comes about for less naturally 'gifted' persons.... by personal growth, self-awareness and develoment of a balanced emotional state of mind... leading to formation of positive trading habits.

An introspective mind and a quest for self-knowledge gives one an edge as well..... provided.... one does not over-analyze.

I am speaking here about a successful discretionary trader!

Ice
:cool:
 
Quote from rlb21079:


If these seem obvious that is alright, I merely want to set a starting point.

i didn't find them at all obvious.

i don't use charts, realtime or otherwise, i don't watch CNBC, i have access to all the live newswires, but i ignore those too, any shmo with $2k can get $0.005 commissions, if i was only trading MSFT, non-MSFT news would be nothing but a distraction...

did i miss any? :)

but i'm going to shut up now, because the last thing i want to do is give away my own edge by having people reconsider what they think is their edge! :-) :-)
 
Quote from damir00:


i didn't find them at all obvious.
...
but i'm going to shut up now, because the last thing i want to do is give away my own edge by having people reconsider what they think is their edge! :-) :-)

I apologize, I was under the impression you were claiming that an 'edge' was an impossibility. I was starting with what I thought would be the most clear examples of one trader having an advantage over another. This is why I used very tangible comparisons like available capital, available information, rate of information delivery, etc. I misinterpreted you.

Take care,
RLB
 
the presenter on behalf of the king did a nice job.

The major major clue that leads to an empirical toolbox, in my opinion, could not have been more fundamental or basic.

Obviously, putting a trading person in a setting that includes the two fundamental items that required comparison for the guys to draw their conclusions, is the requirement for winning.
 
Quote from vegasoul: Is anyone familiar with prospect theory? daniel kahneman actually won last year 's nobel price for it..I think its implication for trading is very profound, It pretty much suggest that human being are hard-wired to lose in the market (by making decisions that have negative expectation ) and being a innate feature of the human psyche, it's probably not possible to get rid of the problem.
Thanks for bringing up this idea. I wasn't familiar with the two economists or their theory, but am familiar with the idea, which Van Tharp discusses in "Trade Your Way to Financial Freedom" and Mark Douglas discusses in his "Trading in the Zone", albeit from quite another angle.

My initial kneejerk response was also "nonsense", but after consideration, it was "hardwired" and "probably can't get rid of the problem" that I disagree with.

Hardwired is a 0-1 condition and there is enough data to show people win in the market, even if for short periods of time. My own experience with Vipassana meditation, as well as its "theory" and the many "unscientific" experiences of its many practicioners also says that one can indeed observe, and change, our seemingly "hardwired" reactions. That Kahneman was able to quantify the concept is a step in the right direction. The next step, however, is far more important: What to do with this insight.

To that end, there is interesting work bieng done of late in financial psychology, particularly methods based on work by Gene Gindlen, whose primary proponent is Flavia Cymbalista of <a href="http://www.marketfocusing.com" target="blank">market focusing.com</a>. <a href="http://www.robindayne.com" target="blank">Robin Dayne</a> is also doing work with body memory and patterns to make market reactions more in line with expectations. I found extraordinary correspondences in their work with Vipassana, but that incidental to their thesis: practical methods to get in touch with intuition in a climate of uncertainty.

Ana Maria
 
Quote from rlb21079:

I watched the presentation on the Nobel site, here are some of what I felt were key points made:

1) Perception --> Intuition --> Reason

The authors of this theory use a hierarchical model to describe human experience as it pertains to the decision-making process. Perception is the process we share with the animal kingdom, wherein we feel, see, smell, etc. The important aspect to remember here is that our perception is relativistic. For example, if you aligned three bowls of water in a row: cold, tepid, hot and placed your left and right hands in the cold and hot bowls for a time and then moved them both into the tepid bowl the nerve endings in each hand would stimulate a different perception of the temperature of the tepid water. Intuition was loosely defined as those thoughts, or decisions, which occur very quickly and without the aid of reason. 'Intuition as constrained to and reflecting perception.' It should be noted that the presenter also stated that intuition is used very often and can be used in a very complex manner. It occurs when the labor of reasoning is no longer necessary, like when a tape reader simply 'sees,' or senses a change in the market.


2) Decision-making is often left to the intuition.

The speaker described the historical model of the decision-making process and its originator briefly. In summary, the previous model described human decision-making as a process whereby value-judgements were made concerning the options at hand and decsisions were made based on the weighing of these perceived values. The criticism of this theory was that it failed to describe certain phenomena.

An example:
a)Is this gamble attractive? -
50% chance of winning $15,000 and
50% chance of losing $10,000 ?

b)Estimate your total net worth and call this 'W'
You own 'W.'
Which is more attractive? -
50% chance of owning W - $10,000
50% chance of owning W + $15,000 ?

Informal results:
(a) Unattractive. It is generally found that unless a gamble has a two to one payout 50% odds are not acceptable.
(b) Slightly more attractive.

The presenter notes that the only difference is in the consideration of wealth, and that the preference for (b) is a failure of the 'pure reason' notion of decision-making.

An example: Given the question, "how much would you pay?," three groups were presented [A] 4 dishes, 4 cups, 4 knives & 4 dishes, 4 cups, 4 knives, 4 bowls (1 broken), 4 forks (2 bent).

Group 1 was shown both [A] & and valued more, as expected
Group 2 was shown only [A] and valued the set at $33
Group 3 was shown only and valued the set at $23

By showing Groups 2 & 3 only [A] or their ability to reason that the two were equivalent, save some extra pieces in , is removed. As a result, the groups were negatively biased against because of the broken pieces. So, the value of things is transient - based not soley on preference and reason, but phrasing (or presentation).


3) Pleasure and Pain.

Here's the set up:
a) Person discovers their net value went from $4 mil to $3 mil
b) Person discovers their net value went from $1 mil to $1.1 mil

The point of contention: Who is happier?
Prior theory would indicate that person (a) should be happier because of greater total wealth. It is obsevered however, that person (a) is relatively discontent. My personal take on this would be that we become accustomed to our states of wealth as we become accustomed to being in hot/cold water. We adapt perceptually, and this adaptation also occurs in the abstract. Also, it would seem direction is a good rule of happiness - am I making progress?, or am I losing money? But I have digressed.


4) Averages and Sums.

See the dishes, cups, knives example. This is the presenter's discussion of why such things are valued differently.



The point you chose to not address was the fundamental opportunity that all this represents to traders. See my other post.
 
Vegasoul has a point,except the theory is flawed because it's to general and vague.Most of us traders can avoid pit falls like the theory if you adhere to your personal trading strategies. However, the general public does fit the criteria of the theory.You only have to look back to 98 and 99 when investors put the most capital in at the bull markets peak.Then only to sell at or near the perceived bottom.People whose only exposure to the markets, is their monthly contribution to their 401k, are infinately more prone to falling into this trap.
 
Quote from iceman1:



A so-called edge is knowing that you will make the correct choices more often than not... thus obtaining a high batting average. It is mastering your craft such that you put yourself in a position to win each day... each year.

How do you obtain this edge... among other ways... via hard work, smart work, preparation, balance...

....and most importantly learning to trust yourself. This latter comes about for less naturally 'gifted' persons.... by personal growth, self-awareness and develoment of a balanced emotional state of mind... leading to formation of positive trading habits.

An introspective mind and a quest for self-knowledge gives one an edge as well..... provided.... one does not over-analyze.

I am speaking here about a successful discretionary trader!

Ice
:cool:

Yes ...
 
Quote from bubba7:


The point you chose to not address was the fundamental opportunity that all this represents to traders.

the market is inscrutable. the other guy probably isn't.

so don't be the "other guy".
 
Back
Top