gene....you're probably right. i trade at ETG, put no money down, and i know the guy next to me trades options on occassion. he's been here a while though.
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Proprietary/options Ecn?
- Thread starter POSMENTUDE
- Start date
ETG has two programs, one for "trainee" and one for "experienced". The difference is that "experienced" is a typical prop deal where you put up money. The "trainee" does not put up money, is not liable for losses, must obey the boss when trading, and gets fired if they lose too much. Obviously they are picky about who their trainees are.
do you think i could get one of those trainee positions as a remote trader? or would I even want to? any idea what the starting pay is?
I would be interested only for the initial time, ie getting used to the software etc, but ultimately would want to be on my own asap.
and Gene, my edge is in the analysis and money management portion. I wouldn't be trading options actively, but taking synthetic positions and essentially swing trading and selling time value/volatility. so I agree with you and Don Bright, there is no "edge" to trading them off the floor, but with proper analysis, risk control and position size management, I think they are the best opportunity out there for taking swing trading type positions.
There are alot of firms out there tho, so all of your input is very vauluable guys, (all who post here, not just the firms) so keep it coming........
I would be interested only for the initial time, ie getting used to the software etc, but ultimately would want to be on my own asap.
and Gene, my edge is in the analysis and money management portion. I wouldn't be trading options actively, but taking synthetic positions and essentially swing trading and selling time value/volatility. so I agree with you and Don Bright, there is no "edge" to trading them off the floor, but with proper analysis, risk control and position size management, I think they are the best opportunity out there for taking swing trading type positions.
There are alot of firms out there tho, so all of your input is very vauluable guys, (all who post here, not just the firms) so keep it coming........
I have no idea if they would hire you or not, you just have to apply. Who knows what their hiring criteria is.
you would not be able to get in as a trainee to be a remote trader - it's available for those that have a track record. additionally, you need to make a multi-year commitment to become a trainee. why would they let you come in and lose money, then once you become profitable leave for a better deal when you have some capital. probably wouldn't be in business too long.
Originally posted by Gene Weissman
Generally options trading is discouraged at pro frims because of the risk(greeks) and support needed for option trading at the pro level. Don, myself and others who have been option MM's or worked at hedge funds know that there is no edge trading options off floor.
If you trade options and have sufficient capital our firm LWS would let you trade spreads and stock around straddles . Most of the options strategies at pro firms is using options to hedge stock postions. See our option examples at http://www.stocktrade.net/services/portf_hedging/hedg_exmpl.htm . Hope this helps.
Gene Weissman
Lieber & Weissman Sec., LLC
gweissman@stocktrade.net
PS I was out for vacation for a couple of weeks . good to be back.
Gene,
There is plenty of edge off the floor. Maybe not in earning the spread, but it's there. Where is the edge in your stock trading? Are you trading on inside information, looking at squigly lines on a chart, or maybe your a investor. Either way, there is no edge in stocks. But I appreciate you keeping others off my turf. I don't want to share my pie with others.
There is plenty of edge off the floor. Maybe not in earning the spread, but it's there. Where is the edge in your stock trading? Are you trading on inside information, looking at squigly lines on a chart, or maybe your a investor. Either way, there is no edge in stocks. But I appreciate you keeping others off my turf. I don't want to share my pie with others.
Posted by Maverick74
Edge in options off floor? I don'ty think so. Limited auto-ex(that can be broken by MM's or the exchange), Relatively high commission rates compared to a floor trader or upstairs Option MM firm($1.00 to $3.00 per contract compared to .50 on the floor) customer margin on option postions(Synthic Call, Put etc.), cancelation fees,Option's controlled by a relatively few big MM firms , no after hours trading, many strategies tha require premium selling require large capital to earn a living. If you cannot sell premium and you are an option trader, you have a big disadvantage. I was an option MM for 12 years and I know this to be true. If you can only buy option premium at all times, you cannot earn a living trading options unless you can pick direction(and option volatility).
A good stock trader can make 250,000 + per year at a pro firm in a stock account with 50k using leverage . Unless a trader has alot of capital, has sophisticated pricing models and extremely low commissions rates-YOU WILL NOT MAKE A LIVING TRADING OPTIONS OFF FLOOR with 50k-and I mean a good living, not selling spreads 20 times or buying 50 contracts to take a shot at making money.
Gene Weissman
Lieber & Weissman Sec., LLC
gweissman@stocktrade.net
Posted by Maverick74
Edge in options off floor? I don'ty think so. Limited auto-ex(that can be broken by MM's or the exchange), Relatively high commission rates compared to a floor trader or upstairs Option MM firm($1.00 to $3.00 per contract compared to .50 on the floor) customer margin on option postions(Synthic Call, Put etc.), cancelation fees,Option's controlled by a relatively few big MM firms , no after hours trading, many strategies tha require premium selling require large capital to earn a living. If you cannot sell premium and you are an option trader, you have a big disadvantage. I was an option MM for 12 years and I know this to be true. If you can only buy option premium at all times, you cannot earn a living trading options unless you can pick direction(and option volatility).
A good stock trader can make 250,000 + per year at a pro firm in a stock account with 50k using leverage . Unless a trader has alot of capital, has sophisticated pricing models and extremely low commissions rates-YOU WILL NOT MAKE A LIVING TRADING OPTIONS OFF FLOOR with 50k-and I mean a good living, not selling spreads 20 times or buying 50 contracts to take a shot at making money.
Gene Weissman
Lieber & Weissman Sec., LLC
gweissman@stocktrade.net
Originally posted by Gene Weissman
There is plenty of edge off the floor. Maybe not in earning the spread, but it's there. Where is the edge in your stock trading? Are you trading on inside information, looking at squigly lines on a chart, or maybe your a investor. Either way, there is no edge in stocks. But I appreciate you keeping others off my turf. I don't want to share my pie with others.
Posted by Maverick74
Edge in options off floor? I don'ty think so. Limited auto-ex(that can be broken by MM's or the exchange), Relatively high commission rates compared to a floor trader or upstairs Option MM firm($1.00 to $3.00 per contract compared to .50 on the floor) customer margin on option postions(Synthic Call, Put etc.), cancelation fees,Option's controlled by a relatively few big MM firms , no after hours trading, many strategies tha require premium selling require large capital to earn a living. If you cannot sell premium and you are an option trader, you have a big disadvantage. I was an option MM for 12 years and I know this to be true. If you can only buy option premium at all times, you cannot earn a living trading options unless you can pick direction(and option volatility).
A good stock trader can make 250,000 + per year at a pro firm in a stock account with 50k using leverage . Unless a trader has alot of capital, has sophisticated pricing models and extremely low commissions rates-YOU WILL NOT MAKE A LIVING TRADING OPTIONS OFF FLOOR with 50k-and I mean a good living, not selling spreads 20 times or buying 50 contracts to take a shot at making money.
Gene Weissman
Lieber & Weissman Sec., LLC
gweissman@stocktrade.net
Gene I respect the fact that you have traded options on the floor for 12 years. So I will take that into account when I respond to you. However, first of all, I am not talking about trading options with a 50k account. Second commisions have come down dramatically for the retail customer. Third, I don't care which few market makers you think control the action, when I go into buy premium they are on the other side of my order if they like it or not. Sometimes, they let me trade against their book.
Now my biggest arguement here is about the statement that if you can't sell premium you can't make any money. I am in 100% disagreement on that. I think the very opposite is true but I guess It's the way I look at the markets. I would never sell premium. When you sell premium you are writing a policy against diseaster hoping it doesn't happen. And if it does, then you are out of business. Pure and simple. Just ask Niederhoffer about that when he was short premium going into 9/11. Personally I prefer to only be long premium. I can't blow up. All I can do is bleed my theta every day very slowy. But there is enough gamma in this market, in fact more then enough to offset that. But I would never write premium. No way. I would suggest Reading Nassem Taleb's work "Fooled By Randomness". No timebombs going off in my hands.
But there is a lot, and I mean a lot, of money to be made in options. I'm not talking about directional trading, just trading the gamma and the vega. Your statement that you have good traders that make 250k a year on 50k is great but they have no edge. What is their edge? Their fast execution, their cheap commision cost? Who is on the other side of their orders? What are they doing, reading candlesticks and bollinger bands? And this gives them what edge? Option trading is very similiar to counting cards in black jack. If you can quantify your edge, you can put the odds in your favor. Just ask Blair Hull. I guess after he did just that in Vegas he started Hull Trading. But you can't quantify your edge in stock trading. Sure you have sound risk management, good discipline, cut your loses, let your winners run, blah, blah, blah. But that is not an edge. In the end you are still hoping that your reasons for buying and shorting a stock are proven right after the fact. You have no way of knowing before hand.
Enjoy your evening.
Hope you are right. I was a MM on the floor (admittedly a long time ago), and I just got the go ahead to trade options in my firm acct. So far, I have not made a trade. Just trying to get used to the platform and order entry. (only have it for 2 days).Originally posted by metooxx
There is an edge ...
I truly believe I can make money trading options. Or at least not lose. So if my plan works, I have a fair upside, and a viable alternative to equities trading when and if I wish to step away from that. Or just break the routine. Or whatever excuse I can use. And an extremely well controlled downside. I think this is not an unreasonable expectation. If I am wrong, and it doesn't work, at least my downside risk will be minimal. This is more than I can say for trading equities or the mini futures.
So I have to look at it as an experiment at this point. I will say that the markets seem harder in that finding the kinds of mispriced spreads that were easy when I was a market maker appears harder now. But the cost of doing business is lower. No seat lease, and actually cheaper commisions (I got ripped off by FOC as a MM, but didn't know better at the time....I made too much money right off the bat to care, and thought I was getting good service. Which I was. But still.....)
Anyway, I am giving it a shot. I will post my results as soon as I have some. So far, the platform is making me dizzy. But I know that it's just a matter of fooling around with it, and developing some familiarity. BTW, I am clearing through SLK and using Redi's Options Montage.