Banks and large hedge funds and institutions usually hire these type of traders. But they usually want you to have a Masters degree in economics, finance, business, math, engineering, computer science, etc..., with a GPA of 3.5 or higher. They start out at 80K a year. You don't get a percentage of the winnings. Salary only.
Prop Shops That Pay You To Trade?
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Banks and large hedge funds and institutions usually hire these type of traders. But they usually want you to have a Masters degree in economics, finance, business, math, engineering, computer science, etc..., with a GPA of 3.5 or higher. They start out at 80K a year. You don't get a percentage of the winnings. Salary only.
Heh, how is Russell W doing these days? I know him quite well from my days in Chicago. Him and I had a bottle of merlot about 2 years ago (the man loves his wine). He went through a lot, some up, some downs.
Disclaimer, my knowledge of futures prop shops (arcades) are limited, but based on my knowledge, none of them are doing particularly well. The presence of automated trading systems, has reduced the market's inefficiencies, so it seems.
However, it depends on what the definition of "prop trading" is. My definition (which is definitely not shared by most ppl here) is an entity that trades it's own capital only, and this borad definition applies to a lot of Chicago firms like Getco, Ronin, Spot, TradeLink, Wolverine, etc. And most of these firms are still doing quite well. It is true that most (if not all) of the trading at these firms are automated, so the type of ppl they hire are the pure quants, developers, etc, but for what it is worth, they are not hedge funds / ibanks as well.
So, from my perspective (which is automated trading), the job market in Chicago is only growth rapidly, while it is also true that the job market for "point-and-click" electronic "manual traders" (sorry, my term) are reduced significantly now from 3-4 years ago.
Just my $0.02
Nah, there are plenty of guys out there making money. I'm just speaking about the guys I have met personally. Hell Igor at Gelber is taking home 10 million a year. I just have not met the guy yet.
I haven't talked to Russell in about a year. I think he just had some kind of surgery. I think he is doing well. I don't buy into the idea that this firm is doing well or this firm is not. I buy into traders. Some traders are doing well, some are not. At any given firm you have guys knocking it out of the park and there are guys at all firms, including the ones you mentioned that are getting killed. I really don't buy into the "automated guys are doing better" theory. Only because I talk to them every week as they are looking for a place to trade. I think the success rate there is as good or bad as it is with manual traders. Now in the world of arbitrage and option market making, or remote market making, like what we do at my firm, those guys clearly have an edge over a button pusher.
But for futures trading, I don't see any clear evidence either way unless you are referring to high frequency futures trading (something that Russell himself is working on).
Trading is a tough business no matter what product you are trading or what your style is.
This is what I have been told as well. Potential of futures is several times of equities. At the same time, guys burn out faster and can blow out quicker due to leverage. Competition level is about the same nowdays.
Both can be traded with minimal capital through IB. On the equity side, all you need is $5k, sometimes less, to go trade through a shop. Just look at the endless advertisements on craigslist of LLC groups looking for bodies to churn. You can trade remote through a "prop" firm quite easy.
Not the same for futures. Short of being the disadvantaged retail trader through IB, you have little opportunities outside of Chicago/London. Which is why I think there are actually more barriers to entry for futs than equities.
I would love to steer many of our "potential" traders to such jobs....but, as hard as I try, and with all the connections I have at Goldman and the other big firms, I just don't see many job openings.
I would appreciate it if you would PM me with any job listings for traders, discretionary preferred, but any traders "job" where they pay someone to take risks. Sure, there are "jobs" - but not pure trading jobs for newbies, IMO....no matter which Wharton 4.0 graduate you're talking about.
(Now, don't get me wrong...there are many jobs in the industry, but we here on ET are talking about trading jobs...and I am not trying to talk anyone in to quitting school to become a prop trader...in fact, just this last week I think I strongly pushed several into completing their college before even thinking about coming to us to be a trader...since not everyone makes it, you need something to "fall back on" - in the other 99% of the world that is "not" trading)...
I hope some of the above makes sense in the purest form of my intended discourse.
Don
