Nice article about Great Point Capital. But it's from 2012. Is it still true?? 25x leverage? And true prop? I thought those days are dwindling...
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/book-takes-a-look-inside-professional-day-traders-1339513989350
Prop Firm Proposal
- Thread starter trader99
- Start date
Nice article about Great Point Capital. But it's from 2012. Is it still true?? 25x leverage? And true prop? I thought those days are dwindling...
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/book-takes-a-look-inside-professional-day-traders-1339513989350
You might want to look at my previous reply as its pretty much what you want. Great Point is similar but there its .0035 per share down to .0015 on volume. Tower Hill is GPC's sister company and there is the small lots. GPC with your own capital you will have free reign and might even get the 20:1 intraday right off the bat with a consistent strategy. Its case by case as far as I know. If you want the other guy DM if that is possible here otherwise give an email contact.
I'm not sure about their current terms, however another trader I know recommended them awhile back.
If you look at Great Point Capital's SEC.gov focus report, they posted over $30 million in net capital at the end of 2014, so they're obviously well capitalized for prop traders.
Since you've had trading licenses before, you may want to compare both offers, retail vs. prop and see which one works best for you, especially if you're going to sit for those damn tests.
By the way, nice article, even though it's a bit dated.
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Thanks. 20:1 intraday and .0035 per share works on retail account. Any platform fees or just straight comm? BTW, how you like the platform?
Thanks Superstar2317.
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I can't understand these (this) threads. Why do you even want a prop firm? the fellow (maverick) gave you the answer - just trade futures.
This whole thread seems silly.
You claim to have a job and the trading is just on the side and all I can see is that you are looking for leverage which you would only need for stocks, but you don't say anything about your ability to trade or rate of return.
If you are losing money now then more leverage would only increase your losses - but you claim to have done prop trading and not a newbie - so if you made money for a firm before and if this is a real thread and not just ET people drumming up chat -
then ask that firm what their current deal is
post it here
and ask other firms for if they can better the deal.
This whole thread seems silly.
You claim to have a job and the trading is just on the side and all I can see is that you are looking for leverage which you would only need for stocks, but you don't say anything about your ability to trade or rate of return.
If you are losing money now then more leverage would only increase your losses - but you claim to have done prop trading and not a newbie - so if you made money for a firm before and if this is a real thread and not just ET people drumming up chat -
then ask that firm what their current deal is
post it here
and ask other firms for if they can better the deal.
aquarian1,
OK. OK. Since you want the backstory to make sense of everything, here it goes. From 2001-2003 I traded prop and I SUCKED. I was a newbie and made all of the classic newbie mistakes. But I learned a WHOLE LOT! If I knew what I know now back then I would've made hands over fist. Then after prop trading, I went back to the corporate world. I worked and progressively move in position and pay. Then 2011, I went back to get a graduate degree and since then my corporate career has progressed in a very nice trajectory.
Along the way(2005 to present), I was trading small futures account(i.e. more leverage) on the side. The results were mixed. At one time, I multiplied my account by 10x(mind you a very small account. trading YG gold futures and pyramiding on the way up.) then precede to lose everything when I didn't have any good risk management(i.e. holding onto losers too long). This is better than the old prop trading days when I was scalping and made practically nothing. Just noise. I liked the action and leverage of futures, but I wasn't very consistent.
Anyhow, long story short, my results got better over time. Initially, the results were seemingly random win, lose, lose, win, lose, etc. but all on small amounts(peanuts). Then I got some big wins(in the thousands) then also some big losses. So, basically poor risk management. Then recently I've made consistently positive results. It's NOT just the amount of winnings, which is obviously bigger than my prop daytrading days since I'm swinging trading, but that I followed CORRECT trading PRINCIPLES and guidelines. My entries are good and my exits are good too. I kept my profits and simply just steadily compound. That's when I realize maybe I'm seeing lights at the end of the tunnel. It's 2015 and I started this journey in 2001! Back then I gave up on corporate world and did prop trading full-time. If I only know what I know now I would banking it then! But I'm older and have a family. I can't do full-time prop trading like I did back then. ahh.. Hindsights..
Now my situation is different than back in 2001-2003. I have a decent paying corporate job, a family, mortgage, baby, etc. I have good financial discipline(learned hard way. hehe) and I have saved a decent amount which I was putting on online bank account yielding like 90bp. So, I figure I should try my hand again at equities which I have not done since my prop days!
So, yes, technically I don't need prop since my equities account will hopefully approach six figures end of year if I continue making good trades(*fingers crossed*) and nothing bad happen. And I'm up nicely YTD.
So, why you think I'm posting about prop? Well, I figure if I'm doing well with my current account then more leverage or prop deals would magnify my gains.
Maybe I should revisit futures trading but this time swing trading. Since I'm doing well swing trading equities, then perhaps I will do well swing trading futures. Perhaps, I should divide my account into two: 1) swing equities trading 2) swing futures trading.
Or I can be patient and wait it out a few more years. Swing trading equities and futures part-time to compound. And if I continue to do well then I'll revisit this topic. Well to me means several multiples of my corporate salary. Which would be quite a challenge but a good proof to myself. No need to take unnecessary risk until you know you have a good methodology. Now that I'm slightly older and wiser, I take a bigger view of things. I see things in a portfolio basis. My corporate job is like a bond that pays every 2 weeks(instead of biannually). My stock returns are like a nice second job with uncertain but positive cash flow. My futures account(when i start that up) is like the occasional oomph. Random winnings.
Eventually I want to trade a large prop account. Like a true prop account with millions if I'm continue to improve in this trajectory.
So, what do you think? I should just continue to trade on my retail accounts for a few more years? Or should I try retail account from a prop firm(20:1)? Or should I consider part-time remote prop(please name reputable firms)?
My only concern is that most prop firms are pure daytrading. And my prior track record with scalping was dismal. So, if I were to do daytrading again, I would do intraday swing. I'm more patient than before and I can hold for larger moves.
Thanks!
trader99
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Trader99,you do realize that at these prop firms your capital is first loss right? So if you take all that money you have been saving and leverage and simply lose a few percent on it, you will wipe out your family's savings in a prop account. Why would you want to risk this?
Maverick,
Interesting perspective. True. I know about my capital as first loss. When I started out in prop back in 2001, there was no capital contributions(good ole days). Then later on I had to do capital contributions.
I have been pretty good with risk management and proper allocation. I cut losses and ride winners. Mind you my account so far is non-margin(Robinhood. $0 commission is great for swing trading but not daytrading since their quotes are fcked up and not realtime). And my trading account is NOT my full family's savings. LOL. I divided that into different buckets. I put some in bonds(very small amount). About half in cash(online bank account). And the other half is in equities unlevered Robinhood account. And this half for trading I might split again into equities and futures. And that's probably as much fun as I can get. But I'm waiting for my account to get bigger which it should be given my trades are going well and continue to do so(*knock on wood*).
You do have a good point. So, what do you think? Should I just continue trading retail until I consistently make several multiples of my corporate job? Then submit that track record to a true prop firm like Kershner Trading and others that are fully backed?
Your wisdom is much appreciated.
True prop firms "usually" don't hire guys quitting their corporate job to come trade. They almost ALWAYS hire guys right out of school and with no trading experience. Be careful trying to do both the corporate gig and the retail trading gig. I am one of those that believe that trading successfully requires an obscene dedication to be successful. I have personally never met a successful hobbyist trader in my entire life. Not saying one or two aren't out there somewhere, I just haven't met one yet.
Thank you for your words of wisdom.
Just to clarify, I didn't say I was going to quit my corp job to do some prop trading. That would be the last thing on my mind. I'm saying unless I make a few multiples of my current income(which would be pretty difficult), trading on the side then maybe. Maybe.. Even then probably unlikely. I'll just continue to compound unless I think going prop will give me a shot at high 6 to low 7 figures. Then sure, who wouldn't. I'm a ways from that developmentally.
Mind you, I was an ex-quant(not hft. more fundamental long-term multifactor quant modelling) working a decent named brand financial institutions before I joined prop trading world. After the dismal results of daytrading, then I SWITCHED career path and no longer work in finance(quant or otherwise). Totally different industry. Much more stable.
Anyhow, so there's really no restrictions on trading etc. So, nothing to be careful about. My coworkers trade on the side too(or rather investing whatever). Though they obviously have no where near the experiences. I just remain silent on my former life. In fact, most people didn't even know I used to work at quant funds. I act pretty normal and just blend in.
I understand that true prop firms want to hire fresh kids. Blank slate and all with no expectations.
I agree that successful trading requires a lot of dedication. Just like anything in life. Just like completing a rigorous undergrad and graduate program at top tier educational institutions, etc. Just like being a top tier athlete, writer, singer, blah blah.
Just because I trade on the side doesn't mean I do it casually. The frequency of trades might not be as high as my old prop trading days, but the results are orders of magnitudes better. I spend a fair amount of time researching before placing trades, etc. In fact, I had to undo a lot of bad habits from intraday trading.
But the GOOD thing that came out of those dark years is that I have seen hundreds if not thousands of patterns and combinations, etc. People who trade daily or weekly(swing and position traders) don't need have the same exposure of market movements as daytraders. But a chart is invariant to time scale. Brett Steenbarger was right.Let's say I was looking at intraday charts for about 8hrs/day(6.5hours during market hours and offline at least 1-2hrs). 8*5*50=2000hrs * 4=8000hours. Plus off and on from 2004 onwards when I was trading my small futures account. I think I'm coming up close to 10,000hrs. Maybe not exactly. Hopefully this is the payback time for all that!
I probably should spend time coding up those things...
So, that's the only thing I'm still grateful and thankful about my dark years in daytrading. Now, I just play those same patterns on a larger time frame thus capturing more points and dont have to be in front of the screen the whole time.
I still got a ways to go.
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