Proof That Specialists Are Crooks

Originally posted by Htrader
First of all, are your stops locally on your computer, at your broker, or on the specialist book itself? For many brokerages it is the first two options. Secondly, even if your stop was at the specialist, its all done electronically anyone. The specialist didn't manually try to screw you on your 200 share lot. Most likely some sort of software mistake either on your computer or at your brokerage.
More...


OK, now this explanation is plausible if not probable.

200 or 2000, if they need to buy/sell inventory won't they manipulate fills? Maybe he had a bunch of 100 share orders to contend with amongst a bunch of AON orders, who knows?

I usually trade 1000 to 2000 and had mostly scaled out of the move anyway, so it's not about the money. I'm just trying to figure out how well the rules get followed in SPEC system as I am somewhat a rookie to trading and especially listed anything.

Just needed to know if I should lodge a complaint or not...

Thanks for the best suggestion yet!
 
Originally posted by jem
This should be a question for tradestation. Where do they route. It is my understanding from when I heavily traded the qqq that the amex does not even take stops with their etfs and spiders. Check the rules as they may have changed. So you may have been screwed by a the people to whom ts sends your orders not even a specialist. If you were improperly triggered you would have had an argument at the time it happened. However in all likelihood there was probably a print somewhere that caused you stop to be triggered. It has happened to me more than once.
More...

Thanks!:)
 
Originally posted by Babak
I don't understand why you guys complain about specialists. We need them. I went down to the local fruit market to get some apples and it was total mayhem.

The sellers were juggling the fruit and paying no attention to the buyers. The buyers were slapping each other in the face and going nuyk-nyuk-nyuk (ala 3 stooges). It was chaos I tell ya!!

Until a great person stepped between the two groups. Someone whispered that he was up from NY on his honeymoon. He swiftly organized the buyers and sellers into two lines and began to go back and forth furiously.

All was saved. Those wanting apples got apples. Those selling apples sold apples.

How the hell does ANY market out there operate without a specialist?

Beats me.
More...


I have no problem with the Specialist system, I only have a problem when my trades get triggered wrong and I'm positive that this time, (unlike most times) I didn't make the mistake.

I'm trying to get ideas of the causes so I can plug the leaks. I don't need these kinds of suprises if at all possible.
 
Originally posted by slapshot
This happened today while I was riding down a SPY short - Iwas "in the money" pretty good on the trade and had no intention of getting out but as a rule I like to place a hard stop order in case data goes down, etc.

You'll need to view both files for it to make sense - I was so pissed that I actually downloaded Snagit6 and configured it and copied the screens in about 15 min, that's why it took me a few bars to get the screen image but believe me, this honestly happened.



I thought that before I send this to SEC with a complaint and my .02 on the Island bullshit that a few of you could see it and make sure I'm not wrong...

Thanks
More...

Relax and take a deep breath slapshot


We could use a lot more info to help you out....
I can tell you haven't dealt with DOT services before so maybe I can help you out.

You must have time and sales up for the info. Without it nothing can be done. We are interested in AMEX prints nothing else.

If this happens go over time and sales.

When did you place your order?

How long was it in the market?

If you had a stop executed was there a price that triggered it?

Does Tradestation place AMEX orders on their server? or on the specialist's order book?


WE NEED A LOT MORE INFO if it was on their server maybe it was a computer glitch which you'll need to verify with Tradestation Securities.

The specialist isn't going to gap for a lousy 200 shares on the SPY when he's busy with 10,000 shares back and forth.

If you had placed an order to buy if it hit and it never hit.

You can call DOT services or your broker (probably for tradestation securities call them to complain.)

They want your account #
Then DOT services will go over time and sales and see why it got triggered.

If there was no print as you claim than you will still be short

.......even if the market has fallen 300 points afterwards.

Which you can then cover . :D


or if we rallied 300 points........don't complain and be glad to be stopped out :)


Basically if a mistake was made it can be changed by talking with DOT services.
Robert
 
SPY is trading at both Nyse and Amex exchanges and on ECN's

Where was your stop held? On your software, at Nyse, or at Amex?

Some brokers hold them in house and trigger them after 2 prints at or better price.. then you will have some slippage or a lot depending on where it is routed and mkt conditions.

If it was held on NYSE you should have gotten either the trigger print or the next one. If it printed first bellow and then above and your trigger was in between you should have gotten the next NYSE print.


Josh
 
Originally posted by rtharp


Relax and take a deep breath slapshot


We could use a lot more info to help you out....
I can tell you haven't dealt with DOT services before so maybe I can help you out.

You must have time and sales up for the info. Without it nothing can be done. We are interested in AMEX prints nothing else.

If this happens go over time and sales.

When did you place your order?

How long was it in the market?

If you had a stop executed was there a price that triggered it?

Does Tradestation place AMEX orders on their server? or on the specialist's order book?


WE NEED A LOT MORE INFO if it was on their server maybe it was a computer glitch which you'll need to verify with Tradestation Securities.

The specialist isn't going to gap for a lousy 200 shares on the SPY when he's busy with 10,000 shares back and forth.

If you had placed an order to buy if it hit and it never hit.

You can call DOT services or your broker (probably for tradestation securities call them to complain.)

They want your account #
Then DOT services will go over time and sales and see why it got triggered.

If there was no print as you claim than you will still be short

.......even if the market has fallen 300 points afterwards.

Which you can then cover . :D


or if we rallied 300 points........don't complain and be glad to be stopped out :)


Basically if a mistake was made it can be changed by talking with DOT services.
Robert
More...


Thanks, I'm not trying to break the trade, just trying to understand how it happened as under different circumstances it could be tragic.

Thanks for the advice for future reference.

Paul
 
Originally posted by Babak

The sellers were juggling the fruit and paying no attention to the buyers. The buyers were slapping each other in the face and going nuyk-nyuk-nyuk (ala 3 stooges). It was chaos I tell ya!!

How the hell does ANY market out there operate without a specialist?
More...

Hello ??? Chicago speaking?? Is it true that the S&P pit operates without a specialist? No, you must be nuts, I don't believe it, it's impossible for ANY market to operate without a specialist.

Hello?? Frankfurt?? Is it true that EUREX operates fully electronically without market makers or specialists?? No, I won't believe it even if I see it, it must be german BS.

Hello?? Paris??... London?? ...

Seriously, I acknowledge that it escapes to common sense that a "chaotic" bunch of buyers and sellers can "self-organize" and operate smoothly. But if it were obvious then communists and crybaby liberals wouldn't exist.
 
When I've been on the wrong side of a way-outside-the-market fill, I've called my broker immediately. Frequently, it's the result of a exchange system glitch of one kind or another, and, in my experience, will be rectified if 1) you report it in a timely manner, and 2) you can show that the transaction took place way outside the market at the time. Once, for instance, the system was in just in the process of filling me at once price, when the market maker backed off, and the transaction was completed at the new price (way outside the market). I had no problem getting Tradestation (or, a while back, Cybertrader) to get whatever trade filled at the proper price.

Right now, I'm sitting on profits from being on the other side of such a trade. I got filled on a limit sell the other day a full 0.6 above the market on a reasonably high volume stock trading in the 15s. The stock never traded at my fill price at any time the rest of the day: The trade took place in the Twilight Zone as far as the charts are concerned, though I seem to recall that the trade did show up on T&S.

I suppose it might still be broken, as it hasn't settled yet. I've heard it suggested that some traders place standing orders way outside the market precisely in the hope of benefiting from such odd events. So, I don't know - it's all such a rare occurrence, I've never inquired about my "rights" and the market's "expectations" under such circumstnaces, though, in the meantime, I made up the difference, and more, by trading HORRIBLY today while trying out a new "experiment," but that's another story...

Oh yeah, one other thing: Why would you use a "stop market" order on anything involving AMEX? Wouldn't it be easier just to slam your head against the wall until blood flowed to the carpet and you lost consciousness?
 
Originally posted by Kymar

Oh yeah, one other thing: Why would you use a "stop market" order on anything involving AMEX? Wouldn't it be easier just to slam your head against the wall until blood flowed to the carpet and you lost consciousness? [/B]
More...


As I mentioned earlier, I only usually put stops on to prevent catastrophe like my DSL goes down or some other problem and then market reverses heavy. This way I know I will get filled somewhat near the stop during a daytrade.

I don't actaully use stop markets to make planned trade exits.

Stop limits have a way of not getting filled...

Or could you advise me of a better way to go? I'm still learning... :confused:

Thank You
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top