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Programming + Trading = career path ?
- Thread starter Detonator
- Start date
Quote from rosy2:
it takes a long time to be strong at development (IMO 10+ yrs). and developing trading systems (realtime reliable network code) is one of the most challenging areas which is why you see nice pay. Another area is quantitative development where you need to know your math as well as solid programming. Stay away from anything IT related or vocational (task oriented) thinking. There's a big difference between computer science and IT grunt work. As far as outsourcing, I have heard about it but not experienced it myself. Trading firms are always looking for developers...most exchange traded contracts are automated by someone you know.
This might help you up the learning curve.
Ninja Trader v6
They've already done a lot of the development work required for a robust automated platform, adding your trading skill(z) and getting up-to-speed on a programming language might get you to where you want to go (at least for your personal needs).
This is a parth I plan on exploring fully in the comjing year.
Regards,
JJ
Heres a story.
About a year ago I was watching an episode of Ghost in the Shell - Standalone Complex (showing the nerdy side now).
During the episode they were tracking an individual who, as it turned out, had been dead for years. Only they handn't known this little fact because his financial records showed that he had been doing business transactions. It turned out that he had developed an automated trading program that just kept making money.
Sound like Sci-Fi? For an experienced trader who also has decent programming skills and the ability to code at least 70% their discretionary methodology, nope.
There are traders doing it on ET right now.
Regards,
JJ
About a year ago I was watching an episode of Ghost in the Shell - Standalone Complex (showing the nerdy side now).
During the episode they were tracking an individual who, as it turned out, had been dead for years. Only they handn't known this little fact because his financial records showed that he had been doing business transactions. It turned out that he had developed an automated trading program that just kept making money.
Sound like Sci-Fi? For an experienced trader who also has decent programming skills and the ability to code at least 70% their discretionary methodology, nope.
There are traders doing it on ET right now.
Regards,
JJ
Quote from RhinoGG:
Buddy, my comments come from first hand experience.
Let me tell ya this much, if you really like to code, and are pretty good at it, why would I hire you? You have no experience at any firm, no track record of success, no referrals from piers or managers. You say you read a few books on C++, coded up a few apps on your own, maybe even did some johnny boy web developement for your blog. Again, why should I hire you, and really, how much do you want me to pay you?
Dude, if your trading full time now and not making the kind of coin you want, you need to pull out all the stops and make it start working. Otherwise, you'll be starting at the very bottom in the IT world, that is , even if you are lucky enough to get hired. Personally, I'd probably shred your resume unless you were my wife's nefew or cousin.
Good luck
Very nice to hear from a management level Software Engineer.
Most of the people hear are ** absolutely delusional **...
About both trading and programming.
Buy Tradestation and you are a "trader".
Write a few scripts and you're a "programmer".
LMAO. Greed is such a mental mind f*ck.
It takes 10 years of focused work to become a doctor or a lawyer...
And it takes 10 years of focused work...
To become a top trader making 6 figures ...
Or a software engineer that's IN DEMAND.
No one needs low level coders.
There is no free lunch in this world.
Why do I have to actually repeat this?
Here is a good summary of what hedge funds and IB's are looking for in their prop traders
http://jobs.traderdaily.efinancialcareers.com/job-4000000000210996.htm/keywordAny=quant trader/
http://jobs.traderdaily.efinancialcareers.com/job-4000000000210996.htm/keywordAny=quant trader/
a couple of points:
1. you don't need to be a "developer" to work in a bank, most junior quants in banks only have the 2-3 year of 'playing' around with languages during their PHDs or their other quantiative courses..
2. banks DO employee dedicated programmers - DEVELOPERS - who sit next to traders and some of them have not a bit clue or interest in trading.. but just build etc. whatever the trader tells them.
3. the language of choice and c++: you'd be surprised how many people in the industry actually hate c++. you'd be even more surprised how many of them actually still use Fortran, and how common and loved the Excel VBA is. I had visited a HF about a year ago and they all used VBA (because they all understood it), I also visited ABN trading floor and they had a team of dedicated VBA programmer! really strange..
in the financial markets, you need to be a good MANAGER. in other words, you need to understand the need of a project, and the most suitable solution. you need to have awreness of all the possibilities out there and which is best suitable. e.g. while c++ offers some advantages, it may not be suitable and prove costly and not productive for certain projects. on the other hand, you should recognise if mili seconds are important to you and u trade intraday, which solution is best. this KNOW-HOW is not limited to the programming language, but to operating systems, connectivity protocols (api vs. fix) etc..
4. programming is not rocket science. NOTHING IS if you love it and have great interest in it. the best thing about programming is: once you learn one of them, you learn all the others with ease. a good starting point is definately VBA.
5. if you plan to work for an institution and not for yourself (i.e. meet the demand of others and the industry) you seriously need to consider learning and being competent in more than 1 language. typical they can include but not limited to: C++, C#, VBA, JAVA, MATLAB, S+, R, VB.NET, MySQL..
6. "quants". they don't necessary trade. they may support the prop desk of a bank, but may not necessary be a quantiative trader. they may focus in other areas that you u may or may not be interest: pricing, forecasting, building risk models.
7. given the points in 6, to be a quant in finance, you can't just be a programmer. you need some higher level math: statistics, pure math (vectors, stochastic calculus, PDEs), econometrics and time series analysis techniques..
8. IF u are seriously keen to be part of a bank team then you must also have a quantiative degree from a reputable university, most candidates that I've come across have PHDs from top universities. degress mainly include natural sciences: physics, chemistry, biology, engineering, maths, statistics. THE main reason for this is, you're required to actully use knowledge gained in these areas to develop new theories etc. I wouldn't be surprised if there were couple of nobel prize winners if risk managers of top banks published their prop models..
in short, a trader-programmer/'quant' career is definately the hottest area in financial markets at the moment.
1. you don't need to be a "developer" to work in a bank, most junior quants in banks only have the 2-3 year of 'playing' around with languages during their PHDs or their other quantiative courses..
2. banks DO employee dedicated programmers - DEVELOPERS - who sit next to traders and some of them have not a bit clue or interest in trading.. but just build etc. whatever the trader tells them.
3. the language of choice and c++: you'd be surprised how many people in the industry actually hate c++. you'd be even more surprised how many of them actually still use Fortran, and how common and loved the Excel VBA is. I had visited a HF about a year ago and they all used VBA (because they all understood it), I also visited ABN trading floor and they had a team of dedicated VBA programmer! really strange..
in the financial markets, you need to be a good MANAGER. in other words, you need to understand the need of a project, and the most suitable solution. you need to have awreness of all the possibilities out there and which is best suitable. e.g. while c++ offers some advantages, it may not be suitable and prove costly and not productive for certain projects. on the other hand, you should recognise if mili seconds are important to you and u trade intraday, which solution is best. this KNOW-HOW is not limited to the programming language, but to operating systems, connectivity protocols (api vs. fix) etc..
4. programming is not rocket science. NOTHING IS if you love it and have great interest in it. the best thing about programming is: once you learn one of them, you learn all the others with ease. a good starting point is definately VBA.
5. if you plan to work for an institution and not for yourself (i.e. meet the demand of others and the industry) you seriously need to consider learning and being competent in more than 1 language. typical they can include but not limited to: C++, C#, VBA, JAVA, MATLAB, S+, R, VB.NET, MySQL..
6. "quants". they don't necessary trade. they may support the prop desk of a bank, but may not necessary be a quantiative trader. they may focus in other areas that you u may or may not be interest: pricing, forecasting, building risk models.
7. given the points in 6, to be a quant in finance, you can't just be a programmer. you need some higher level math: statistics, pure math (vectors, stochastic calculus, PDEs), econometrics and time series analysis techniques..
8. IF u are seriously keen to be part of a bank team then you must also have a quantiative degree from a reputable university, most candidates that I've come across have PHDs from top universities. degress mainly include natural sciences: physics, chemistry, biology, engineering, maths, statistics. THE main reason for this is, you're required to actully use knowledge gained in these areas to develop new theories etc. I wouldn't be surprised if there were couple of nobel prize winners if risk managers of top banks published their prop models..
in short, a trader-programmer/'quant' career is definately the hottest area in financial markets at the moment.
Quote from Detonator:
Hello,
I have been trading and trying to make my own models for over 2 years now but feel I need to add something to my tool box to fall back on and/or improve my chances of working in the trading field (I don't want to go the broker/salesman route).
Can any of you tell me if there is a demand for programmers in the trading field ? If so what are the languages that are in most demand ? Are there any exclusive software used in the finance world ?
Any feedback from programmers or folks in the field is greatly appreciated . . .
Thanks,
-Chris
If you work for an Investment Bank you are not normally allowed to trade your own account while working for them.
Ofcourse you can do it in secret, but if you main selling point is that you are experienced trading and programming your own account this might make hard for you to get hired even if you say you'll stop it once hired.
The alternative is to work for a financial consultancy or software house where this shouldn't be a problem.
Also, IT like any other field places a high value on previous commercial experience, for each job there are dozens of resumes, most candidates are not suitable but they all come with years of commercial experience and most with IT degrees.
You are going to find it hard to break in.
Thanks for the information Bat's, it actually shows that a lot of the corporate level jobs aren't so much about what you know, as they are about who you know, same old same old.
Once again, doing your own system development is going to be a learning curve, but I seriously doubt it's going to take 10 years to hammer out ... and as I've pointed-out, there are great strides being taken in the industry.
Regards to OP for brining the subject up.
JJ
Once again, doing your own system development is going to be a learning curve, but I seriously doubt it's going to take 10 years to hammer out ... and as I've pointed-out, there are great strides being taken in the industry.
Regards to OP for brining the subject up.
JJ