Profits, religion and politics

Quote from stu:



Religion can and is defined as anything those defining it want to define it as . That's just another reason amongst many why it is and should become, more and more irrelevant.
Religion requires you to worship and subordinate yourself.
Politicians want your vote and will change their view points over long or short time periods to suit what they want to get.
To trade the market you don't have to worship it or agree with it, you stand before it with your principles and are judged accordingly.

There's nothing like the harsh reality and indifference in the market for wakening up any vestiges of common sense lying dormant in some hazy, bottomless, dappled existence of religious fantasy or political naivety and hurtling a conscious state back into the essential hard headed pragmatism of survival.
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I must disagree on a few thing. "Religion" doesn't require you to worship or subordinate yourself. Look at Buddhism, Taoism, and other Eastern Religion. They don't worship or subordinate. Sure there's Buddha and Lao Tse but they are a symbolic figure of the resultant of the teaching. You achieve they're level of enlightenment through they're teachings of rules to live by.

For Western Religions like Christianity, Judaism, and Muslims, there's concept of going to heaven. They give rules in which to live by to achieve a certain harmony with God so that they are accepted to heaven when they are raise from mortality. But they do require to worship and subordinate for this instance.

Also, you mention about how politicians manipulate you. Most religions require and have strong emphasis towards education. The reason why is to be able to decide what is good or evil. In this case, whether the politicians are good or evil.

I agree with you about how worshipping the market is worthless. Still, you need respect towards it and you need to know where you stand with it. Ultimately, you trade the "market" with "your" principles and judgement.
 
I must disagree on a few thing. "Religion" doesn't require you to worship or subordinate yourself. Look at Buddhism, Taoism, and other Eastern Religion. They don't worship or subordinate. Sure there's Buddha and Lao Tse but they are a symbolic figure of the resultant of the teaching. You achieve they're level of enlightenment through they're teachings of rules to live by.

For Western Religions like Christianity, Judaism, and Muslims, there's concept of going to heaven. They give rules in which to live by to achieve a certain harmony with God so that they are accepted to heaven when they are raise from mortality. But they do require to worship and subordinate for this instance.
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The sloppy definition of religion into some "Finding Yourself" is simply confirming my point
Religion :
A strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny
Subordinate:
Someone subject to the authority or controlof another
So from what you say neither of the above are correct !:confused:
To suggest Religions like Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, don't require worship and subordination is just plain wrong. You really need to check more carefully
Religions do indeed have rule books.
"Educating" people on how to use these rule books which are chock full of violence and hate would be a good place to start. Up to now the only way is with a great big dose of of hypocrisy
I agree with you about how worshipping the market is worthless. Still, you need respect towards it and you need to know where you stand with it. Ultimately, you trade the "market" with "your" principles and judgement.
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Again you make my point for me .
If you read what I said in my last paragraph, I feel I made the point better. You may never know where you stand with a politician, but they can be voted out ( at least in democratic countries). You'll never find out where you stand with religion it just keeps getting redefined, it always has been that way . Its made very obvious where you stand when you get involved with the market. It represents a more truthful reality than either of the other two. Unless you are one who prefers ambiguity
 
Quote from inandlong:

Humility rules. Service rules. Faith... rules.

One can awaken at 6am each morning...religiously. Or brush your teeth three times a day... religiously. Or trade the same way every time... religiously. The term "religion" is useless except to define a doctrine of belief and practice.

More appropriate is the term spirituality. This too, is broad but more accurately describes one's relationship with God, because that relationship occurs via the Holy Spirit.

Life is harsh. One doesn't need to participate in the markets to discover that. A quick drive through many downtown streets to see the cold and hungry huddled in an alley will provide all the awakening one needs.

Believing in God is not about reason, it's about Faith. To some, like myself, the existence of God is "a priori". I heard the Word, knew it was true, end of story for me. Others have travelled a different path to discover their faith. Many times that path is harsh and led to a broken personal spirit.

Dissenters and doubters offer a million different reasons for their sentiment. Believers in God, those who have faith in their heart of His existence, regardless of their belief in Jesus, do not have 'a million different reasons for their sentiment.' They have one. They know in their hearts that God exists.

None of the arguments against the existence of God make sense to the heart of a believer. Non-believers can say "yeah but..." all day long, and the believer recognizes that he doesn't have the answers to satisfy man's reason.... All of the harsh talk and vulgar language and anger and frustration mean nothing.... because it is not about reason.

It is all about Faith.
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inandlong.
Faith is fine in my book. Having Faith in whatever one wants and likes to have faith in is important.
Whether the Faith is Blind or not (as I believe it must be in regards to religion) doesn't matter.
When one says "I believe" then that is to be respected.
When one says "HE is the Truth" etc (whoever "HE" is) that is to be condemed. :)
 
The One who said that "I am the truth, the light , and the way." is the one who has to be condemned and rejected not the phrase. He was either deluded (crazy), a liar, or who He said he was. That is most definitely a personal choice and sets up a personal relationship of acceptance or rejection. He condemned religions (Saducces, and Pharisees) as whitewashed tombs full of dead mens' bones so He in effect said you need a relationship of acceptance or rejection and the middle ground is only fooling itself. As for me I have accepted and established that relationship but everyone else in the whole world is absolutely free to make their own choice as far as I am concerned.
 
Quote from inandlong:



Believing in God is not about reason, it's about Faith. To some, like myself, the existence of God is "a priori".
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OK in,

What you call "faith" and what I call "creation" could easily be construed as the same thing, as could anyone's belief in any of the major religions.

Ask yourself this? What is really happening when one prays? You might say that you were speaking with the Christian God (as would people in many religions say about their respective Gods) and I might say you are creating a visualization of the future (which lends credence to how people of many different religions can find solace in prayer). What's the difference? I don't know.

Personally how either of us chooses to explain the role of the almighty in our world is not my beef, what I have a problem with is people using religion as a tool for segregation that implies superiority over others (i.e. People in my religion are rich and powerful, so my religion must be the right religion) [BTW that's "reasoning" at its heights].


You, while more open minded than others, still echo some of these same thoughts.

i.e.


I heard the Word, knew it was true, end of story for me.


Does this imply that the "Word" of the Muslims is untrue, yet for some strange reason they continue to follow Mohammed just for the heck of it? (Hmmm, that sounds kinda like reasoning?)

Maybe if you grew up in Iraq you would say that you heard the "Word" of the Koran, knew it was true, end of story for you.

I think there is a greater answer and most of us choose not to pursue it.
 
matt,

I know what you are saying when you say - paraphrased - "what about the koran"? I agree with you. I ask myself that same question because I do not think these people are foolng themselves. I believe they believe as completely in their Koran as I do the Word, eg., Bible. Believe me it is a bit of a frustration for me because I truly want good for all.

And that is why I said 'for me.' I recognize the reality that truth to one is not the same truth to another, yet both know in their hearts that what they know is the truth. All I have ever asked of anyone is that they search their heart for the truth and not accept a doctrine because they are supposed to. I have spoken with many Muslims and I know they feel their God is the same one I worship, the difference is Muhammed and Jesus. With the Jews it is the same, Jesus is the Messiah or not. The Hindu and the Buddhists, I have never had the opportunity to ask one anything.

You know, it makes me think, and I am sure there is an answer, I wonder which beliefs find more crossover, Eastern to Western or vice versa. My biased mind says I bet more people convert to Christianity or Islam or Judaism from Bhuddism and Hinduism than the other way around. And along those same lines, another interesting question I think would be are more people converting to a "western religion" from agnosticism and atheism, or the other way around. Simply asked, are more people gaining spiritual Faith or losing it?
 
Oh yeah, on the prayer thing... I hope that by being obedient to God's Word in the Bible, that my will is His Will. So when I pray, I am praying for His continued Grace, His protection, His wisdom. I pray for the health of my family. I pray for wise trading decisions. If I ask for something in the future and it doesn't happen that way, I have Faith that the way it happens is best for me in God's Will for me. Paul writes about that in Romans and I believe it so it is an easy thing to accept. He says - paraphrased, "all things work together for good for those who love the Lord." It might not be Romans, :), but it is Paul.

Anyway, maybe that appears as a future vision of some type, but to me, it is just the way God has asked me to communicate with Him.

:)
 
I think it would be better for people to "convert to humanity" and cut out the middle man of religion, who relies on laying claim to what belongs naturally to mankind and which is good and beneficial for all in the first place. Useful too should politicians do similar. :)
 
Quote from inandlong:



You know, it makes me think, and I am sure there is an answer, I wonder which beliefs find more crossover, Eastern to Western or vice versa. My biased mind says I bet more people convert to Christianity or Islam or Judaism from Buddhism and Hinduism than the other way around.
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That would be my guess as well, but how much of that crossover is the result of the desire of the Christian and Islamic faiths' to expand, where as the Eastern religions just don't really care about expansion?


And along those same lines, another interesting question I think would be are more people converting to a "western religion" from agnosticism and atheism, or the other way around. Simply asked, are more people gaining spiritual Faith or losing it?


Hmmm, that is interesting. My guess would be the fastest growing population would be people like myself that don't embrace any particular faith, but likewise don't consider themselves agnostic either (of course that is my bias).

Along those lines, I question if the United States in 20 years will mimic the Europe of Today (meaning very few traditional Christians and a lot of gray area)?
 
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