Pro Poker Player + Pro Trader?
- Thread starter DegenFarang
- Start date
DF , I put him on ignore because of style of his reply , I don't debate people that's start their reply with "LOL".
My ms was about odds for certain scenario that other poster brought(all players at the same level) , rather that general debate if poker is about luck or knowledge. Do I belive that player with edge can make money in poker ? Of course I do. Do I belive that poker tournament has different rules that cash games ? Of course (just like BJ cash strategy is completely different from BJ tournament). But both of you failed to see the original poster point : pro needs not-so-good / newbies players to maintain his edge. Now , if you personally are in the top 20% of the best players at ANY EVENT/TABLE , then good for you and the above theory is not applied to players like you .
One of my friends worked in a restaurant own by guys who have made millions of dollars playing poker. They invested 2 million dollars in this restaurant as sort of a hobby. My friend told me when they were out of cash for certain projects they´d call the owners and they would come with a plastic bag full of cash.
I spoke to one of them in the bar one night. He told me he could go down to the local casino and make 800 dollars every night, 7 days a week, the rake doesn´t matter, so many loosers. But he prefered playing on the internet, made more money there.
This guy I´m speaking to has a huge apartment and a famous TV bimbo as his mistress. AND he´s a nerd. He´s the kind of guy that you see with pimples and thick glasses in a college movie.
He stands in his fancy bar and imitates some character from lord of the rings, making stupid expressions.
All of this is just my way of saying that poker is not about luck. These guys have been playing for 20 years and they have spent thousands of hours studying statistics.
/Stalker
I spoke to one of them in the bar one night. He told me he could go down to the local casino and make 800 dollars every night, 7 days a week, the rake doesn´t matter, so many loosers. But he prefered playing on the internet, made more money there.
This guy I´m speaking to has a huge apartment and a famous TV bimbo as his mistress. AND he´s a nerd. He´s the kind of guy that you see with pimples and thick glasses in a college movie.
He stands in his fancy bar and imitates some character from lord of the rings, making stupid expressions.
All of this is just my way of saying that poker is not about luck. These guys have been playing for 20 years and they have spent thousands of hours studying statistics.
/Stalker
Hey IV... have you ever heard this one?
"Don't bring a knife to a gunfight"
Actually... let's go to the record, shall we?
Here is what you really said.
So you were saying that when VERY VERY good players play together, it creates a situation where all players are playing 'at the same level'. This is the argument that gk was making, that somehow there exist situations when everyone plays correctly, or 'at the same level'.
Here is my response to you after you tried to make this argument 3 times
Just for you IV, I will tell you again - with regard to the situation you claim you were addressing, the one you are now trying to lay off onto another poster, namely, the
"scenario that other poster brought(all players at the same level)..."
That "scenario" does not exist
I see. This was the original poster's point. But is it your point too, IV?
(It's kind of sleazy how you are now saying that all these points were "the other poster's" and "the original poster's")
Anyway, if it is - sorry, wrong again. As Sammy Farha said in the 2003 WSOP
"If I am facing good players, I can outplay them. I can make them lay down the best hand. But if I am playing bad players... I need cards to win"
I will agree that a NON-PRO can make more money playing bad players because we can stick to a simple strategy and win. A Pro playing a table of fish is like a Ferrari on a Go-Kart Track - sure, it is going to win, but who cares - it can only win peanuts at the Go-Kart track; it's not doing what it was designed and built to do. We can't see the car performing in that situation.
It is not at all clear that a Pro has a bigger edge playing non-Pros, because a huge part of the edge in Poker is SKILL!!!! Skill in betting and reading opponents. Bad Players don't know what the hell they are doing. They can't respond to skilled play. If you watch a $0.01/$0.02 table, you will see that usually, the winner is the person who can show down the best hand at the end. Sometimes, that's what it takes to win when bad players are playing - the best cards. But even at these tables, there are always a few guys who are playing better than the others - they take the money from the fish by waiting until they have the cards and then betting the shit out of them.
So we can see that the only grain of truth in what you were saying is that at a table with a lot of bad players, the chances are higher that to win, you will need the best hand at the showdown. This has nothing to do with your claims about the "impossible hypothetical" where all players are at the same skill level.
A Pro's winnings will be more limited by probability when he is playing bad players than when he is able to take control of a table full of players that can be outplayed.
I'd welcome any comment from real poker players here. I've played maybe 100,000 hands online, so I am a newb.
"Don't bring a knife to a gunfight"
Actually... let's go to the record, shall we?
Here is what you really said.
So you were saying that when VERY VERY good players play together, it creates a situation where all players are playing 'at the same level'. This is the argument that gk was making, that somehow there exist situations when everyone plays correctly, or 'at the same level'.
Here is my response to you after you tried to make this argument 3 times
Just for you IV, I will tell you again - with regard to the situation you claim you were addressing, the one you are now trying to lay off onto another poster, namely, the
"scenario that other poster brought(all players at the same level)..."
That "scenario" does not exist
I see. This was the original poster's point. But is it your point too, IV?
(It's kind of sleazy how you are now saying that all these points were "the other poster's" and "the original poster's")
Anyway, if it is - sorry, wrong again. As Sammy Farha said in the 2003 WSOP
"If I am facing good players, I can outplay them. I can make them lay down the best hand. But if I am playing bad players... I need cards to win"
I will agree that a NON-PRO can make more money playing bad players because we can stick to a simple strategy and win. A Pro playing a table of fish is like a Ferrari on a Go-Kart Track - sure, it is going to win, but who cares - it can only win peanuts at the Go-Kart track; it's not doing what it was designed and built to do. We can't see the car performing in that situation.
It is not at all clear that a Pro has a bigger edge playing non-Pros, because a huge part of the edge in Poker is SKILL!!!! Skill in betting and reading opponents. Bad Players don't know what the hell they are doing. They can't respond to skilled play. If you watch a $0.01/$0.02 table, you will see that usually, the winner is the person who can show down the best hand at the end. Sometimes, that's what it takes to win when bad players are playing - the best cards. But even at these tables, there are always a few guys who are playing better than the others - they take the money from the fish by waiting until they have the cards and then betting the shit out of them.
So we can see that the only grain of truth in what you were saying is that at a table with a lot of bad players, the chances are higher that to win, you will need the best hand at the showdown. This has nothing to do with your claims about the "impossible hypothetical" where all players are at the same skill level.
A Pro's winnings will be more limited by probability when he is playing bad players than when he is able to take control of a table full of players that can be outplayed.
I'd welcome any comment from real poker players here. I've played maybe 100,000 hands online, so I am a newb.
Hi DF
Well, that was my last post to IV. Sorry for hijacking your thread.
Have you had any other ideas about how to get the information you need? Using the search feature here can take a little time but will be worth it. If you can pick 3 good books to read, I feel it's a good way to get going if you have no set ideas about what 'trading' means for you personally.
If you start reading through a bunch of posts here, you will see that a lot of good traders say that it's all about having an edge, one that you have seen either by reviewing the results of other traders or by backtesting or (probably most likely and most expensive) by trading and losing and figuring out what doesn't work. That's why people are tempted by prepackaged systems. They figure they can just buy that experience.
On the day you place your first trade, you should know the answers to these questions - what is my plan and what is my edge? A lot of guys can't really answer them but they place their first trade anyway. And some of them go on to be successful, I'm sure. But it costs lots of money.
I hope someone comes on here and says
"Don't listen to these guys who say you should be scared of your own shadow - open an account and start trading. That's the only way to learn".
I don't really agree, but maybe somewhere between the two lies the truth...
Well, that was my last post to IV. Sorry for hijacking your thread.
Have you had any other ideas about how to get the information you need? Using the search feature here can take a little time but will be worth it. If you can pick 3 good books to read, I feel it's a good way to get going if you have no set ideas about what 'trading' means for you personally.
If you start reading through a bunch of posts here, you will see that a lot of good traders say that it's all about having an edge, one that you have seen either by reviewing the results of other traders or by backtesting or (probably most likely and most expensive) by trading and losing and figuring out what doesn't work. That's why people are tempted by prepackaged systems. They figure they can just buy that experience.
On the day you place your first trade, you should know the answers to these questions - what is my plan and what is my edge? A lot of guys can't really answer them but they place their first trade anyway. And some of them go on to be successful, I'm sure. But it costs lots of money.
I hope someone comes on here and says
"Don't listen to these guys who say you should be scared of your own shadow - open an account and start trading. That's the only way to learn".
I don't really agree, but maybe somewhere between the two lies the truth...
TN luckily i learned the hard way playing poker...i played as a fish and a losing player for a long time before i wised up...if i were to advise a new player i'd tell him to read a ton and play play money tables or VERY low stakes for a good long while before playing for any amount that would sting to lose
that is how i am approaching this
i found a great poker forum:
www.twoplustwo.com
that has improved my game an obscene amount, hopefully i have just found that same miracle with trading
thanks for all the great replys, from PM's and information i've got here...i think i'm off to a good start
i'm off to read a bunch now, you guys will surely hear more from me in the future
DF
that is how i am approaching this
i found a great poker forum:
www.twoplustwo.com
that has improved my game an obscene amount, hopefully i have just found that same miracle with trading
thanks for all the great replys, from PM's and information i've got here...i think i'm off to a good start
i'm off to read a bunch now, you guys will surely hear more from me in the future
DF
Don't want to seem to 'negative,' but you have not found the holy grail trading website here. No one who has truly mastered trading for real is ever going to lay it out and fully describe what it is they actually do. The stakes are too high, and there is not enough room for eveyone who wants to be there.Quote from DegenFarang:
i found a great poker forum:
www.twoplustwo.com
that has improved my game an obscene amount, hopefully i have just found that same miracle with trading
DF
Even if you paid $1,000s to watch a master trade and listen to them comment, you'd never be able to figure out the thinking they use just by observing their output.