POS and non POW coins pumping?

krugman25 said:
I'm not interested in getting into a huge PoS vs. PoW debate. My post was just saying that all other things being equal, it's more expensive to attack a true PoS network with slashing than PoW and hash renting, by probably 1 or 2 orders of magnitude higher.

I don't hate PoW because it got us to where we are at but I do think it's going to become an antiquated means to secure a blockchain. That's just my opinion. Time will tell.
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Do you have experience with a PoS blockchain, krugman25?

Today's your lucky day, because I do. I was a PoS baker (miner) on Tezos LPOS system. I was also a bitcoin miner in 2014. I have a post on a thread if you're interested on a tl;dr on bitcoin mining

Understand that you cannot hire a bitcoin mining farm and 51% attack the bitcoin network. There's not enough asics out there. If you think you're gonna hire Poolin and a couple of other mining farms, and combine the mining pool operations from all those mining pools, without all the millions of external miners noticing, for the purpose of double spending on the Bitcoin network, good luck with that

Read the whitepaper and understand why the game theory mechanics go against that as all those mining pools and the miners are basically destroying the value of their bitcoin holdings and their net worth as a consequence. Perhaps you're talking about the PoW in Ethereum

Bitcoin blockchain is the most secure blockchain, period

Let's get back to PoS. You do realize it's not some magical invention, right? It's been around for a while

A pure PoS means you lock your coins 24/7/365 and your staking (mining) power to secure the block and get the rewards and transaction fees is based on the number of coins. When you get to secure the block, your staking power gets reduced and you start getting power again based on the amount of coins you have and how long, gaining power over time

Think of a wallet that has 1 million Eth coins locked up 24/7/365 or 100K coins, you can't do anything with it, you can't even deposit those on defi

How about the minimum staker, 32 Eth, how long staking 24/7/365 before he gains the power to secure the block? what if he loses power or internet? same for all the miners. A minimum staking wallet will probably take a year or longer staking 24/7/365 before it sees any rewards since there are over 100M coins

Enter delegated PoS. Decred introduced it but there's lockup periods when I looked into it or your get penalized

Enter Tezos LPOS, you simply choose a Baker (staking mining pool operator) and everyone gets a reward every 3 days. If you sell your coins before, you get a portion based on how much participation you did, because there are 32 endorsers who get smaller rewards on every block

I was a solo-baker, 96K coins, equivalent to 12 (8K per full baker). I did not accept outside stakers, I put the bond which are at risk if I double bake or act malicious

Is Ethereum going to have that or are you required to lock your coins for staking 24/7/365? What happens where there are updates to the protocol, on Tezos, there's constant upgrades on chain voting, on chain activation, as a baker, I had to be updated constantly

When a baker is not updated and is pretty big, there are disruptions on the next block, so you get an hour delay or longer, can you imagine Ethereum getting delayed on the block generation and all the billions of $ defi transactions suffer?

What happens when these big staking operations have issues due to mismatched software, are we going to have a fork on the Ethereum network and risk $100's of billions of value on the network?

If there's delegation on the staking, I can guarantee you that there will be centralization on the Ethereum PoS. It happened on the Tezos LPOS and as a small baker, I got rewards every 3 days, no diminished returns, and yet people set and forget point to the big staking operations

One guy who's running a staking operation got into an accident and was unavailable to update/maintain the the baking node, no one in who was delegated to his pool got paid, and yet more than 50% did not move, why? because people set it on their phone wallets and forget it. Bitcoin miners are much more technical savvy and will know when the pool has stopped paying them

Exit scam is common a big baker will say we're stopping operations on this day, stop paying, but keep the baking node running, guess what? still earning rewards but not paying the delegators who pointed their wallets to his baking node

Ehtereum 2.0 PoS is going to be exciting, Ethereum is defi and stablecoins blockchain holding $100's of billions and now playing around with PoS on its blockchain, good luck with all of the mess of that system, be careful what you wish for

I can pretty much guarantee centralization, but we will see since Eth 2.0 is not out yet, but already being compared to Bitcoin PoW blockchain as being superior, smh
 
johnarb said:
Do you have experience with a PoS blockchain, krugman25?

Today's your lucky day, because I do. I was a PoS baker (miner) on Tezos LPOS system. I was also a bitcoin miner in 2014. I have a post on a thread if you're interested on a tl;dr on bitcoin mining

Understand that you cannot hire a bitcoin mining farm and 51% attack the bitcoin network. There's not enough asics out there. If you think you're gonna hire Poolin and a couple of other mining farms, and combine the mining pool operations from all those mining pools, without all the millions of external miners noticing, for the purpose of double spending on the Bitcoin network, good luck with that

Read the whitepaper and understand why the game theory mechanics go against that as all those mining pools and the miners are basically destroying the value of their bitcoin holdings and their net worth as a consequence. Perhaps you're talking about the PoW in Ethereum

Bitcoin blockchain is the most secure blockchain, period

Let's get back to PoS. You do realize it's not some magical invention, right? It's been around for a while

A pure PoS means you lock your coins 24/7/365 and your staking (mining) power to secure the block and get the rewards and transaction fees is based on the number of coins. When you get to secure the block, your staking power gets reduced and you start getting power again based on the amount of coins you have and how long, gaining power over time

Think of a wallet that has 1 million Eth coins locked up 24/7/365 or 100K coins, you can't do anything with it, you can't even deposit those on defi

How about the minimum staker, 32 Eth, how long staking 24/7/365 before he gains the power to secure the block? what if he loses power or internet? same for all the miners. A minimum staking wallet will probably take a year or longer staking 24/7/365 before it sees any rewards since there are over 100M coins

Enter delegated PoS. Decred introduced it but there's lockup periods when I looked into it or your get penalized

Enter Tezos LPOS, you simply choose a Baker (staking mining pool operator) and everyone gets a reward every 3 days. If you sell your coins before, you get a portion based on how much participation you did, because there are 32 endorsers who get smaller rewards on every block

I was a solo-baker, 96K coins, equivalent to 12 (8K per full baker). I did not accept outside stakers, I put the bond which are at risk if I double bake or act malicious

Is Ethereum going to have that or are you required to lock your coins for staking 24/7/365? What happens where there are updates to the protocol, on Tezos, there's constant upgrades on chain voting, on chain activation, as a baker, I had to be updated constantly

When a baker is not updated and is pretty big, there are disruptions on the next block, so you get an hour delay or longer, can you imagine Ethereum getting delayed on the block generation and all the billions of $ defi transactions suffer?

What happens when these big staking operations have issues due to mismatched software, are we going to have a fork on the Ethereum network and risk $100's of billions of value on the network?

If there's delegation on the staking, I can guarantee you that there will be centralization on the Ethereum PoS. It happened on the Tezos LPOS and as a small baker, I got rewards every 3 days, no diminished returns, and yet people set and forget point to the big staking operations

One guy who's running a staking operation got into an accident and was unavailable to update/maintain the the baking node, no one in who was delegated to his pool got paid, and yet more than 50% did not move, why? because people set it on their phone wallets and forget it. Bitcoin miners are much more technical savvy and will know when the pool has stopped paying them

Exit scam is common a big baker will say we're stopping operations on this day, stop paying, but keep the baking node running, guess what? still earning rewards but not paying the delegators who pointed their wallets to his baking node

Ehtereum 2.0 PoS is going to be exciting, Ethereum is defi and stablecoins blockchain holding $100's of billions and now playing around with PoS on its blockchain, good luck with all of the mess of that system, be careful what you wish for

I can pretty much guarantee centralization, but we will see since Eth 2.0 is not out yet, but already being compared to Bitcoin PoW blockchain as being superior, smh
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when I was reading the pros/cons, POW seemed the most secure as it would not fall to a 51% attack. Anyone who thinks they can hire out computing power to launch such an attack is not familiar w/mining IMO.

I am more hedging the carbon regulation angle, there POS wins hands down.
 
Here4money said:
when I was reading the pros/cons, POW seemed the most secure as it would not fall to a 51% attack. Anyone who thinks they can hire out computing power to launch such an attack is not familiar w/mining IMO.

I am more hedging the carbon regulation angle, there POS wins hands down.
More...

I am worried for problems with Eth 2.0 because of all the $100's of billions of crypto asset values on the Ethereum blockchain, we're talking about the stable coins running on the Eterehum blockchain plus all the defi platforms

There's a lot at stake, no pun intended

When people say PoS is the solution, but have no experience with staking in the past, then I have to point it out

I won't be surprised if Eth 2.0 staking is very similar or an improvement on the Tezos LPOS. No lockups, even a solo miner running the bare minimum gets paid rewards every 3 days, yet centralization still occurred

Even when there's all kinds of reddit posts advising to go to smaller bakers (staking pools), people go to the most popular ones and set it and forget it. Most people left their coins at Coinbase even though the yield is the lowest

Like I said, I just don't want the Ethereum blockchain to have problems or the security is diminished due to centralization, a government entity can shut down the biggest operator if they have a hold of the people in charge or someone making a mistake, accidental or deliberate causing a problem on the Ethereum network

There is so much, too much $$$$$ value on the Ethereum blockchain and it will cause a ripple effect throughout the whole cryptos ecosystem
 
Just to be clear, PoS is Proof of Stake, if you're going to secure the block you will be signing it with your private key for the consensus mechanism of a decentralized network

And game theory means your 1 million Ethereum coins are open for hacking on that staking node

Yea, very beautiful system. Good luck exposing the private key to your wallet on a staking node that has access to 1 million Ethereum coins, or 100K or 10K, whatever our pain point is

That's pure PoS

Enter DPOS and LPOS

Tezos has a bonded system, only the bonds are at risk, and the private key of the staking node holding the bond is at risk

Also can use offline signer. Too much complexity, please read the Tezos whitepaper

[you can run a remote signer on a ssh reverse tunnel so if you have a VPS full staking node that has the blockchain running you can run a tezos node without a blockchain only the private key punched through the firewall on ssh tunnel, but I did this and missed a block or 2 due to network latency so I stopped and just made sure my linux node is secure with a ssh certificate only no username/password]
 
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johnarb said:
I am worried for problems with Eth 2.0 because of all the $100's of billions of crypto asset values on the Ethereum blockchain, we're talking about the stable coins running on the Eterehum blockchain plus all the defi platforms

There's a lot at stake, no pun intended

When people say PoS is the solution, but have no experience with staking in the past, then I have to point it out

I won't be surprised if Eth 2.0 staking is very similar or an improvement on the Tezos LPOS. No lockups, even a solo miner running the bare minimum gets paid rewards every 3 days, yet centralization still occurred

Even when there's all kinds of reddit posts advising to go to smaller bakers (staking pools), people go to the most popular ones and set it and forget it. Most people left their coins at Coinbase even though the yield is the lowest

Like I said, I just don't want the Ethereum blockchain to have problems or the security is diminished due to centralization, a government entity can shut down the biggest operator if they have a hold of the people in charge or someone making a mistake, accidental or deliberate causing a problem on the Ethereum network

There is so much, too much $$$$$ value on the Ethereum blockchain and it will cause a ripple effect throughout the whole cryptos ecosystem
More...
how is centralization an issue w/POS? I'm looking to run a node using rocket pool as are million others. I do want to run it off something 24/7 like amazon AWS so there's danger of too many people running their node on such colocation services but point is there's no centralized node, everyone can run their own node. It's like thinking miner vs giant mining farm operation IMO.
 
Here4money said:
how is centralization an issue w/POS? I'm looking to run a node using rocket pool as are million others. I do want to run it off something 24/7 like amazon AWS so there's danger of too many people running their node on such colocation services but point is there's no centralized node, everyone can run their own node. It's like thinking miner vs giant mining farm operation IMO.
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I did not read up on the design of the Eth 2.0 PoS but I'm guessing since it's coming after DPOS and LPOS that it will be an improvement

Let's take it back to basics, Proof of Stake means you're using your stake, your coin holdings to secure the Ethereum blockchain. The bigger the stake, the more times you get to validate/secure a block

There's no fake stake, at least there shouldn't be, otherwise the security of the blockchain, double spending can be compromised, think of transferring the $100M USDC and double spending

So a wallet that holds 1000 Eth has to stake 24/7/365 to gain the necessary staking weight to secure for example the 10 blocks within the next 3 days

That wallet has to sign with the private key to that wallet, each of the blocks with its hash that secures each of the block

Can you imagine putting $4M worth of Eth on a wallet that is online 24/7/365 so that when those 10 blocks are generated, the wallet can sign with the private key? The rewards better be worth it, right? And cannot sell or move those 1000 Eth or else, lose the ability to generate the hash and secure the block and the rewards for those 10 blocks

Proof of Stake, you gotta show the Ethereum network, the nodes, the consensus that you are worthy of each of the blocks assigned to you

But Rocket pool, saw it somewhere is a mining pool similar to PoW mining pool, you delegate to a staking pool operations, that's where the centralization come in

It happened in Tezos, the most popular staking pool gets the new users and just stuck

Now, the biggest mining staking pool is Coinbase. I think Binance was free fee when it started and gained a lot of delegators

Anyway, we will see when Eth 2.0 is out, if there are centralization with staking mining pools

[edit: if you only have 10 Eth and there's no delegation or staking mining pool, when will you get the reward? after 1 year? after 2 years? of staking 24/7/365 without moving the coins ever?]
 
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I think it's a still a WIP, I'd be surprised if they don't introduce a concept like Tezos Liquid PoS where the coins from the delegators can be moved and sold any time

This has its own perils, not too much skin in the game, a true PoS means you lock your coins to earn the rewards, no moving of coins, the security of the blockchain is at stake (no pun intended)

https://ethereum.org/en/eth2/staking/



Staking pool services below (equivalent to mining pools in PoW, i.e Poolin). This is where centralization can occur, a popular staking service begets more users, and becomes more popular, and begets more users, a reflexive loop. We'll see when it's out

https://beaconcha.in/stakingServices
 
I examined the beacon blockchain, actually looks pretty good, looks like it's running smoothly

Come to think of it, I was a Tezos baker (solo miner) and the Tezos blockchain had some issues with earlier upgrades, but after a few upgrades, everything was going smoothly

Ethereum has some of the best developers so I'm sure they studied previous version of PoS and learned from their mistakes or struggles

https://beaconcha.in/validator/110389
 
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