Pope: "There is no Hell"

[volpri]

What evidence is there of a realm beyond the physical/empirical (excepting somebody's faith that there is one)?

What evidence is there that there IS NO realm beyond the empirical? My grandma once rented a house that used to be a bar and a guy was stabbed to death against the door when it was a bar.

....well it got converted to a house and granny comes along and rents it. The door would open by itself. You could pile furniture against it and it would still open. Granny had no tangible evidence you could see or feel but something was opening the door and it wasn’t the wind or neighbor.

So what do you say about that?

 

[volpri]

PS the house/bar wasn’t unlevel either that I know of.

 

[tomorton]

What evidence is there that there IS NO realm beyond the empirical? My grandma once rented a house that used to be a bar and a guy was stabbed to death against the door when it was a bar.

....well it got converted to a house and granny comes along and rents it. The door would open by itself. You could pile furniture against it and it would still open. Granny had no tangible evidence you could see or feel but something was opening the door and it wasn’t the wind or neighbor.

So what do you say about that?

I don't believe in stuff because there is no evidence, that doesn't make any sense at all.

Even religious adherents who believe in gods, angels and miracles etc. require some form of evidence - its just that the evidence which satisfies them - such as holy literature and the word of their priests - would not satisfy me.

I can't see why you would extrapolate from an unexplained occurrence (the opening door) that there is a hell.

 

[volpri]

I don't believe in stuff because there is no evidence, that doesn't make any sense at all.

Even religious adherents who believe in gods, angels and miracles etc. require some form of evidence - its just that the evidence which satisfies them - such as holy literature and the word of their priests - would not satisfy me.

I can't see why you would extrapolate from an unexplained occurrence (the opening door) that there is a hell.

Who is extrapolating? You said nothing exists upon death. Please explain the door.

You apparently just don’t want or perhaps HOPE THAT there there is no hell, or for that matter a heaven.

But i might extrapolate!

 

[Sprout]

I have absolutely no idea what you're saying.

Ok, sure, to spell it out for you. Shamans are common among indigenous cultures as medicine men/women whom operate in a different cosmological context. The spirit world as real as your own physical body. They operate on knowledge passed by word-of-mouth as well as having a direct experience of phenomenon. It's akin to the scientific method but without published works.

The other people are published authors with over 100yrs of combined clinical therapeutic practice documenting from a western culture's pov what indigenous culture know and embrace. Even though they have separate practices and some have no contact with each others works, the experience of 1000's of their clients relate a unified experience of what is described as 'the time between lives.' These clients are people from a variety of backgrounds, education and critical thinking capacity. Some of the reading will explain this that you yourself have experienced yet did not put into words with past and current relationships.

Most education in western culture is through abstract experience whereas induction is the mode of transmission. Deduction and critical thinking is not what is taught in schools on a mainstream level. Mostly it's to produce conditioned reactions to authority.

If you still do not understand then increase your vocabulary. Just because you deny something's existence does not change it's reality beyond one's limited understanding of the world in which we live.

edit:
A good a place as any to explore this domain is Edith Fiore's The Unquiet Dead. Amazon's comment section relates many stories of folks whom had no place else to turn for relief.

 

[tomorton]

Who is extrapolating? You said nothing exists upon death. Please explain the door.

You apparently just don’t want or perhaps HOPE THAT there there is no hell, or for that matter a heaven.

But i might extrapolate!

you're extrapolating or else you're being irrelevant. I was arguing that there is no hell because there is no evidence of hell and you came in and presented the door anecdote. If not to refute my position on hell, why did you post?

Of course I can't explain the door, there's insufficient information.

 

[tomorton]

Ok, sure, to spell it out for you. Shamans are common among indigenous cultures as medicine men/women whom operate in a different cosmological context. The spirit world as real as your own physical body. They operate on knowledge passed by word-of-mouth as well as having a direct experience of phenomenon. It's akin to the scientific method but without published works.

The other people are published authors with over 100yrs of combined clinical therapeutic practice documenting from a western culture's pov what indigenous culture know and embrace. Even though they have separate practices and some have no contact with each others works, the experience of 1000's of their clients relate a unified experience of what is described as 'the time between lives.' These clients are people from a variety of backgrounds, education and critical thinking capacity. Some of the reading will explain this that you yourself have experienced yet did not put into words with past and current relationships.

Most education in western culture is through abstract experience whereas induction is the mode of transmission. Deduction and critical thinking is not what is taught in schools on a mainstream level. Mostly it's to produce conditioned reactions to authority.

If you still do not understand then increase your vocabulary. Just because you deny something's existence does not change it's reality beyond one's limited understanding of the world in which we live.

I am not impressed by the spiritual "knowledge" or "power" of older or more primitive cultures over younger or more technologically dependent cultures. The only reason they could claim this is that they themselves said it was so, or somebody else said it was so. Whoever's saying it and wherever they are in history or geography, there's still no evidence there is a spirit world or, as in this specific case, a hell.

I argue that there is no reason to believe something without evidence, you're arguing that hearsay evidence will do for this, and that I should believe some hearsay evidence based on the character and culture of the persons saying it. Good luck in your next court case.

 

[Sprout]

I am not impressed by the spiritual "knowledge" or "power" of older or more primitive cultures over younger or more technologically dependent cultures. The only reason they could claim this is that they themselves said it was so, or somebody else said it was so. Whoever's saying it and wherever they are in history or geography, there's still no evidence there is a spirit world or, as in this specific case, a hell.

I argue that there is no reason to believe something without evidence, you're arguing that hearsay evidence will do for this, and that I should believe some hearsay evidence based on the character and culture of the persons saying it. Good luck in your next court case.

Suit yourself, your refusal and claim of lack of evidence is noted. I've had my own direct experience with mysteries both light and dark that would probably make the hair on the back of your neck stand up.
Just because I do not understand these experiences nor 'believe' in them doesn't change their existence. For example, the 'knowing' I received when I physically touched a recently passed family member prior to embalming. I didn't have words for it and it wasn't until years later where I was introduced to the concepts of clairsentience and claircognizance thereby able to frame my experience. It's a knowing in my bones that there is life beyond death. My suffering in that moment lifted and a profound peace washed over me.


As for the existence of hell, well all one would have to consider are psychopathic serial killers preying on the innocent or be exposed to the horrors of warfare of any kind or be open to feeling the ecological destruction to the environment. I get that you are numb. We live in a pain-oriented culture and that would be a logical response.

Your expressing your truth. I respect that. I'm not here to argue nor persuade you, simply to suggest this world contains mysteries perhaps you have still not yet acknowledged nor unraveled.

 

[tomorton]

Suit yourself, your refusal and claim of lack of evidence is noted. I've had my own direct experience with mysteries both light and dark that would probably make the hair on the back of your neck stand up.
Just because I do not understand these experiences nor 'believe' in them doesn't change their existence. For example, the 'knowing' I received when I physically touched a recently passed family member prior to embalming. I didn't have words for it and it wasn't until years later where I was introduced to the concepts of clairsentience and claircognizance thereby able to frame my experience. It's a knowing in my bones that there is life beyond death. My suffering in that moment lifted and a profound peace washed over me.


As for the existence of hell, well all one would have to consider are psychopathic serial killers preying on the innocent or be exposed to the horrors of warfare of any kind or be open to feeling the ecological destruction to the environment. I get that you are numb. We live in a pain-oriented culture and that would be a logical response.

Your expressing your truth. I respect that. I'm not here to argue nor persuade you, simply to suggest this world contains mysteries perhaps you have still not yet acknowledged nor unraveled.

Sounds like you're also here to express your feelings of your own superiority. The evidence for which of course cannot be examined. How appropriate.

 

[Sprout]

Sounds like you're also here to express your feelings of your own superiority. The evidence for which of course cannot be examined. How appropriate.

Mmm, superior no, not my intention. More knowledgeable yes, based on first hand experience as well as the results of my own due diligence.