POLL: What is your religious faith?

[Turok]

The way it's set up now (assuming it was set up), there are plenty of "laws" in place that arguably limit free will -- gravity for instance. I still find plenty of "free will" options while obeying the law of gravity.

I don't see how a scientifically proven god would imply a requirement that I would automatically respect what he stands for or be unable to exercise my free will and reject his beliefs and requirements.

In fact, if the god that is represented by most of the judeo-christian world was to choose to communicate with me, I would ask him/her if he actually IS the god represented by these communities and by the bible. If he were to answer "yes", I would walk away and never look back -- without a care of the consequences.

It's possible to believe in a god without a doubt and still not respect and follow him.

JB
(agnostic with atheist leanings)

Quote from Hansel H:

Good point, but maybe God/god needs to be known in an non-scientific manner,

The most basic tenet of Judeo-Christianism is that God bestowed upon us the faculty of free will. If God's existence and relationship to us were to be made a scientific certainty our free will would be meaningless; every choice would be a no-brainer -just do whatever the scientifically proven God wants. We'd all be fundamentalist automatons.

The way it's set up now ( assuming it was set up ) the element of logical uncertainty makes free will more relevant.

Hans
(agnostic with deist leanings)

 

[Hansel H]

Quote from Turok:

The way it's set up now (assuming it was set up), there are plenty of "laws" in place that arguably limit free will -- gravity for instance. I still find plenty of "free will" options while obeying the law of gravity.

I don't see how a scientifically proven god would imply a requirement that I would automatically respect what he stands for or be unable to exercise my free will and reject his beliefs and requirements.

In fact, if the god that is represented by most of the judeo-christian world was to choose to communicate with me, I would ask him/her if he actually IS the god represented by these communities and by the bible. If he were to answer "yes", I ver look back -- without a care of the consequences.

It's possible to believe in a god without a doubt and still not respect and follow him.

JB
(agnostic with atheist leanings)

The laws of nature are not negotiable and therefore not pertinent to our choosing (free will). Our free will is applied to whatever it is we're given to work with/around - including a world of natural laws.

If you knew with absolute certainty of the existence of an all-powerful God who wanted you to do his will on pain of perpetual agony... Come on.. you wouldn't do exactly as you were told?

 

[bluud]

Quote from Turok:

something I clearly never implied.

you implied it by the reason you replied not your reply itself

Quote from Turok:
My statement reflects my position -- a god is free to do as he pleases and you claiming something is impossible for him is something I don't understand or agree with.

and where did I state a specific act is impossible or possible for God to perform?

 

[Turok]

bluud:
>you implied it by the reason you replied not
>your reply itself

Me thinks you've been drinking.

>and where did I state a specific act is
>impossible or possible for God to perform?

You (a few posts ago):
>you can not prove God scientifically, that is to
>say through scientific methods accepted and
>agreed upon by scientists.

You said it 'can't be done' thus impossible.

I find no reason whatsoever to say it can't be done.

JB

 

[Turok]

H:
>The laws of nature are not negotiable and
>therefore not pertinent to our choosing (free will).

With your concession that the scientifically validated law of gravity impinges not on free will, why believe that any other scientifically validated law/entity would be different?

>Our free will is applied to whatever it is we're given
>to work with/around - including a world of natural laws.

... or a proven god.

>If you knew with absolute certainty of the
>existence of an all-powerful God who wanted
>you to do his will on pain of perpetual agony...
>Come on.. you wouldn't do exactly as you were told?

If the all-powerfull god that revealed himself believed in "do as I say or I'll burn you in hell", -- he's an ASS that doesn't deserve the respect I give my dog (meaning, "no").

You see, I have this thing called "free will" and I actually believe in exercising it.

JB

 

[Free Thinker]

"To me, one of the best ways to become a free thinker is to first, put aside our own EXTREMELY limited viewpoints (we are right and they are wrong) and consider all possibilities, objectively. Second, realize that even the wisest person who ever lived still knew very little in the grand scheme of things."

I spent the first 50 years of my life as a bible believing baptist. I think i have considered the possibility of your belief.

 

[Free Thinker]

Quote from rcanfiel:

What evidence? You want to find evidence about God, and science has still not solved many of the basic problems, like energy, famine, droughts, rising seas, nuclear proliferation, how life arose, creating complex life forms from scratch, why they think space is 11-dimensional, understanding human thought, and a hundred thousand other things? Science is still in diapers, and is not something that is in a position to define whether or not there is a creator. We can use the concept of "science myth" as readily as "bible myth"

Again, you mistake "free thought" with ignorance.

As limited the evidence is for some scientific possibilities it still trumps biblical evidence where there is 0 evidence that it ever happened.

 

[MajorUrsa]

Quote from bluud:

well said! they both suck equally

funny thing schools serve the same purpose temples (i mean like churches and that kind of shit) did years ago, there was always a fag who was called the teacher, the saint or whatever the fuck you want to call them, they taught pupils what they really had no idea of, their ass was kissed and their balls were licked in hope that they might be accepted by the teacher

I see your point but why are you so negative? It seems you don't even believe in yourself and are angry towards anyone who does believe in 'something'. I believe the world would be a far worse place if everyone acted like you do. Did they treat you that badly?

Ursa..

 

[rcanfiel]

Quote from Turok:

Strawman alert:
There's nothing in my statement claiming that he "should" be revealing himself -- in fact, that's why I included the "a god who wanted to be know" qualifier.

That is true

 

[rcanfiel]

Quote from Hansel H:

The most basic tenet of Judeo-Christianism is that God bestowed upon us the faculty of free will.

While it is true we have free will, it is not the driving force of a Judeo-Christian relationship with God. The Tanakh/Old Testament makes it clear that no one chooses God freely, but is in constant rebellion. It clearly states that the Jews are the chosen people; God originates a covenant with Abraham, and then with Moses, He appears to the prophets, and many others. Just the book of Judges documents about 13 clear cycles where His people are ruled by a Judge, they fall away from Him, they are therefore conquered by their enemies, they cry out to God for deliverance, God delivers them and provides a Judge, they fall away from Him, etc. etc.

The New Testament is no different. Jesus did not speak in parables just "to make it clear to simple people." He spoke in a way and later often privately explained the meaning, that enabled His followers only to grasp the message, and to prevent unbelievers from understanding. He told the disciples "You did not choose me, but I chose you." One of the most prevalent term for true believers is "the Elect" or "the Called." Which means those He chose. purified and caused to follow Him.

The principle of Election is explained, with comprehensive scripture references [the red numbers in brackets] here:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs

and Free Will, with scripture references (It is quite different from what most people think of it) here:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

rcanfiel
(YHWHistic evolutionist with a calvinistic view of scripture and no problem with its content)