POLL: The repercussions of a US attack on Iraq
- Thread starter candletrader
- Start date
Too strong...You know what amuses me?? Macedonia is certainly further from progress and modernity than Let's say turkey and this guy says pompously : "Western way of life"....
Wake up man. Like if he was an american. Macedonia is certainly not america. Many people from eastern europe are even blaming the USa for what had happened to them.
Today their girls go to the west to prostiture themselves, there is an avalanche of Porn movies with eastern european girls. mafia is present everywhere and the injustice is just growing among those population.
Many friends from the fanatic muslim world studied in Russia or Ukrainia and said that if you had a few dollars you could buy whatever they want and with a few dollars they were treated like kings. So please stop with your western way of life thing that's just too funny.
You know how many russian I have seen in Turkey, how many models and people work in Turkey??? More than you could imagine.. So stop your fluff.
Only the son of a very rich MAcedonian can talk that way and be so arrogant. I don't think all the eastern european I met and who are nice guys are so arrogant and so happy to live a western life.
again BabakKhomeini represents the Chiaa less than 10% of the total muslim on the planet . and yes in Islam contrary to Catholicism there is no pope and no hierarchy. So basically this Fatwa binds nobody except the one that wants to follow it.
Personal freedom. well some books were never published in europe or in the USa because they touch a sensible aspect.
The movie Once upon a time in America was not authorised at first in the USA. A book written by Garaudy and dealing with The history of Israel was never published also.
So Basically, there are on many aspects a lack of democracy In Europe.
Man you're killing me.
I can't stop laughing. You are huge
I can't stop laughing. You are huge
Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of ...
http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mk.html
http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mk.html
I agree completely. Thing is, having read a LOT of both your (Dan) and Candle's thoughts, the reality is the two of you really are not looking for different objectives. Candle has, as he readily admits, made a 180 degree swing in his outlook. The bounce-back is due soon! (witness the Dow now relative to this am).
And you, Dan, yeah, war is a necessary element (so far) of preserving freedom (or any other ideology). But right now, I gotta go with the obvious fact that any war the US would provoke right now would be counter productive. For all the reasons stated throughout this debate. Including, but not limited to the scenarios of the possibilities brought up in the "poll" in this thread.
Right now, Iraq is a possible future threat. Not a "clear and present danger" as is required by our constitution. So much has been said about this. North Korea is most likely in possession of "the bomb" already. But Bush isn't too interested (seemingly) in engaging Korea in a conflict now. This oil element truly does stink. If we did not have an oilman in the Whitehouse, with an oilman vice president to boot, maybe it would be easier to view things more objectively. My man, I love America, and I would fight gladly to retain our freedoms and way of life. But this really does reek of a "business deal".
Truly, Saddam has to go. But there HAS to be a better way than going to war with a nation. Especially if it will raise more anti-American sentiment, which it surely will. This is NOT to say that if Iraq posed a real threat I wouldn't back a real acton. But to fight a preemptive war "on the come"?
We have real enemies. Maybe it is a matter of frustration for the current administration that they can't seem to nail down the enemies that have struck at us directly (Al Qaeda). Maybe it is about the frustration that our economy sucks which isn't supposed to happen with a Republican administration. Maybe it's a personal feud because Saddam and Daddy Bush had their little dance in '91. Whatever, it seems that we have bigger concerns than Iraq's craving for weapons of mass destruction. Everyone wants "big guns" .... remember the debate about handguns that went on here not long ago? The bigger the better? To keep under a pillow to protect against the most unlikely of all scenarios? (Home robbery).
Hey, Israel didn't like what was going on in Iraq's nuclear research program, so they just went in and bombed their facility. And did Iraq even retaliate? No, because they are an insignificant power really. Lots of oil. Lots of soldiers. Lots of insanity. But lots of threat? Seems not. Besides, weapons inspectors are there as we speak. Why won't Bush accept their findings after making such a stink about getting them in in the first place?
Seems to make sense to try and avoid a war if possible. If it isn't possible, then that is another story. But a "preemptive" war? Come on! Israel made a "preemptive" strike. Seemed adequate. And with todays technology, why risk American lives for what can be done with drones and whatever weapons we have that you and I have no idea about? Whatever we do know about, most assuredly is old news and fading technology at best. The "good stuff" is kept under wraps. And will be until deployed. Which is how it should be. Hell, we pay so much in taxes for military spending, we should be getting our money's worth.
Get Saddam. Get Bin Laden. Cut off the head of the snake, etc. The people of Iraq are not our enemies. And it seems more than a bit hypocritical that we put up with the Saudi regime.....all about business.
Now on the other side of the coin....yeah Daniel, I agree; Islamic teachings allow these maniacs to rule. So yep, there is a fundamental flaw in the beliefs of the poor souls subjected to these demented leaders. But tell me how we can possibly deter this from continuing? That is a "solution" that would get you a Nobel for sure. So far, we come up empty. Look at TF....change his background, and you would have a reasonable guy. But he is what his history made him. Not his fault. You rejected Christianity. It was easy for you. But try living in North Africa or the Middle East and denouncing the beliefs of your family and culture there, as opposed to what you were able to face and deal with. Doesn't fly. These beliefs are so ingrained, so strongly held that we see where it leads. Suicide bombers and all the rest. So yeah, I agree...Islam is not going to "live and let live". Unless we can re-educate the followers and replace the leaders.
Not an easy task. No easy answers. When the adherents figure that an afterlife is better than the present one, it's gonna be hard to dissuade them from their willingness to go out as martyrs. (and in so many cases, anything would be an improvement over LIFE). But just maybe we can luck out. Just maybe the cowardice of the "true believers" that are in charge will wake up the general populace. It seems like that is what is the natural course that should eventually succeed in helping to stop the madness. When Saddam stands up and stops hiding. When Bin Laden does it, well then they would rally more support. But this is not what they are about. This will never happen. They are about power and sacrificing their own children. And living in luxury while their "constituents" subsist on virtually nothing. Which serves our purposes ultimately.
Remember Gamal Abdul Nasser? (or however his name was spelled). I am sure you don't first hand, but you are a well read guy. Look what a coward he showed himself to be. And now, sure enough, Egypt has come around. Hopefully the rest will follow. Right now we have Bin Laden hiding, Saddam hiding, and Arafat hiding (in plain sight). Interestingly Arafat is probably the best example of demonstrating weakness, cowardice and selfishness. Why doesn't Israel rid the planet of this guy who wants no part of peace? Could it be because he is such a shining example to his own people that they are led by a loser and a totally ineffective and useless head of "state"? Maybe he serves the purposes of Isreal better than the purposes of the Palestinians. Which is exactly the case (IMHO). A time consuming and sad situation. But hey, after a few thousand years, what's another few years if it accomplishes a final throwing in the towel (pardon the expression) by the sadly led and poorly fed followers of the PA?
Sorry for the length and degree of rambling here, but it is tough to be concise and trade at the same time (I seldom do trade at this hour, but am stuck in positions).
Peace,
rs7THE SPREAD OF A WORLD CREED
Lucy Berrington finds the Muslim Faith is winning Western admirers despite hostile media coverage. The Times (London) - Tuesday, 9th November 1993
Unprecedented numbers of British people, nearly all of them women, are converting to Islam at a time of deep divisions within the Anglican and Catholic churches.
The rate of conversions has prompted predictions that Islam will rapidly become an important religious force in this country. "Within the next 20 years the number of British converts will equal or overtake the immigrant Muslim community that brought the faith here", says Rose Kendrick, a religious education teacher at a Hull comprehensive and the author of a textbook guide to the Koran. She says: "Islam is as much a world faith as is Roman Catholicism. No one nationality claims it as its own". Islam is also spreading fast on the continent and in America.
The surge in conversions to Islam has taken place despite the negative image of the faith in the Western press. Indeed, the pace of conversions has accelerated since publicity over the Salman Rushdie affairsome , the Gulf War and the plight of the Muslims in Bosnia. It is even more ironic that most British converts should be women, given the widespread view in the west that Islam treats women poorly. In the United States, women converts outnumber men by four to one, and in Britain make up the bulk of the estimated 10, 000 to 20, 000 converts, forming part of a Muslim community of 1 to 1.5 million. Many of Britain's "New Muslims" are from middle-class backgrounds. They include Matthew Wilkinson, a former head boy of Eton who went on to Cambridge, and a son and daughter of Lord Justice Scott, the judge heading the arms-to-Iraq enquiry.
A small-scale survey by the Islamic Foundation in Leicester suggests that most converts are aged 30 to 50. Younger Muslims point to many conversions among students and highlight the intellectual thrust of Islam. "Muhammad" said, "The light of Islam will rise in the West" and I think that is what is happening in our day" says Aliya Haeri, an American-born psychologist who converted 15 years ago. She is a consultant to the Zahra Trust, a charity publishing spiritual literature and is one of Britain's prominent Islamic speakers. She adds: "Western converts are coming to Islam with fresh eyes, without all the habits of the East, avoiding much of what is culturally wrong. The purest tradition is finding itself strongest in the West."
Some say the conversions are prompted by the rise of comparative religious education. The British media, offering what Muslims describe as a relentless bad press on all things Islamic, is also said to have helped. Westerners despairing of their own society - rising in crime, family breakdown, drugs and alcoholism - have come to admire the discipline and security of Islam. Many converts are former Christians disillusioned by the uncertainty of the church and unhappy with the concept of the Trinity and deification of Jesus.
Quest of the Convert - Why Change?
Other converts describe a search for a religious identity. Many had previously been practising Christians but found intellectual satisfaction in Islam. "I was a theology student and it was the academic argument that led to my conversion." Rose Kendrick, a religious education teacher and author, said she objected to the concept of the original sin: "Under Islam, the sins of the fathers aren't visited on the sons. The idea that God is not always forgiving is blasphemous to Muslims."
Maimuna, 39, was raised as a High Anglican and confirmed at 15 at the peak of her religious devotion. "I was entranced by the ritual of the High Church and thought about taking the veil." Her crisis came when a prayer was not answered. She slammed the door on visiting vicars but travelled to convents for discussions with nuns. "My belief came back stronger, but not for the Church, the institution or the dogma." She researched every Christian denomination, plus Judaism, Buddhism and Krishna Consciousness, before turning to Islam.
Many converts from Christianity reject the ecclesiastical hierarchy emphasising Muslims' direct relationship with God. They sense a lack of leadership in the Church of England and are suspicious of its apparent flexibility. "Muslims don't keep shifting their goal-posts," says Huda Khattab, 28, author of The Muslim Woman's Handbook, published this year by Ta-Ha. She converted ten years ago while studying Arabic at university. "Christianity changes, like the way some have said pre-marital sex is okay if its with the person you're going to marry. It seems so wishy-washy. Islam was constant about sex, about praying five times a day. The prayer makes you conscious of God all the time. You're continually touching base."
Lucy Berrington finds the Muslim Faith is winning Western admirers despite hostile media coverage. The Times (London) - Tuesday, 9th November 1993
Unprecedented numbers of British people, nearly all of them women, are converting to Islam at a time of deep divisions within the Anglican and Catholic churches.
The rate of conversions has prompted predictions that Islam will rapidly become an important religious force in this country. "Within the next 20 years the number of British converts will equal or overtake the immigrant Muslim community that brought the faith here", says Rose Kendrick, a religious education teacher at a Hull comprehensive and the author of a textbook guide to the Koran. She says: "Islam is as much a world faith as is Roman Catholicism. No one nationality claims it as its own". Islam is also spreading fast on the continent and in America.
The surge in conversions to Islam has taken place despite the negative image of the faith in the Western press. Indeed, the pace of conversions has accelerated since publicity over the Salman Rushdie affairsome , the Gulf War and the plight of the Muslims in Bosnia. It is even more ironic that most British converts should be women, given the widespread view in the west that Islam treats women poorly. In the United States, women converts outnumber men by four to one, and in Britain make up the bulk of the estimated 10, 000 to 20, 000 converts, forming part of a Muslim community of 1 to 1.5 million. Many of Britain's "New Muslims" are from middle-class backgrounds. They include Matthew Wilkinson, a former head boy of Eton who went on to Cambridge, and a son and daughter of Lord Justice Scott, the judge heading the arms-to-Iraq enquiry.
A small-scale survey by the Islamic Foundation in Leicester suggests that most converts are aged 30 to 50. Younger Muslims point to many conversions among students and highlight the intellectual thrust of Islam. "Muhammad" said, "The light of Islam will rise in the West" and I think that is what is happening in our day" says Aliya Haeri, an American-born psychologist who converted 15 years ago. She is a consultant to the Zahra Trust, a charity publishing spiritual literature and is one of Britain's prominent Islamic speakers. She adds: "Western converts are coming to Islam with fresh eyes, without all the habits of the East, avoiding much of what is culturally wrong. The purest tradition is finding itself strongest in the West."
Some say the conversions are prompted by the rise of comparative religious education. The British media, offering what Muslims describe as a relentless bad press on all things Islamic, is also said to have helped. Westerners despairing of their own society - rising in crime, family breakdown, drugs and alcoholism - have come to admire the discipline and security of Islam. Many converts are former Christians disillusioned by the uncertainty of the church and unhappy with the concept of the Trinity and deification of Jesus.
Quest of the Convert - Why Change?
Other converts describe a search for a religious identity. Many had previously been practising Christians but found intellectual satisfaction in Islam. "I was a theology student and it was the academic argument that led to my conversion." Rose Kendrick, a religious education teacher and author, said she objected to the concept of the original sin: "Under Islam, the sins of the fathers aren't visited on the sons. The idea that God is not always forgiving is blasphemous to Muslims."
Maimuna, 39, was raised as a High Anglican and confirmed at 15 at the peak of her religious devotion. "I was entranced by the ritual of the High Church and thought about taking the veil." Her crisis came when a prayer was not answered. She slammed the door on visiting vicars but travelled to convents for discussions with nuns. "My belief came back stronger, but not for the Church, the institution or the dogma." She researched every Christian denomination, plus Judaism, Buddhism and Krishna Consciousness, before turning to Islam.
Many converts from Christianity reject the ecclesiastical hierarchy emphasising Muslims' direct relationship with God. They sense a lack of leadership in the Church of England and are suspicious of its apparent flexibility. "Muslims don't keep shifting their goal-posts," says Huda Khattab, 28, author of The Muslim Woman's Handbook, published this year by Ta-Ha. She converted ten years ago while studying Arabic at university. "Christianity changes, like the way some have said pre-marital sex is okay if its with the person you're going to marry. It seems so wishy-washy. Islam was constant about sex, about praying five times a day. The prayer makes you conscious of God all the time. You're continually touching base."