POLL: The repercussions of a US attack on Iraq

[daniel_m]

TF2000 you idiot fruitcake!

i'm NOT - get it NOT - basing my opinion on 'CIA propaganda' blah blah blah

i have based it on the BEST source of all - THE KORAN ITSELF!

that is why i say there is no escaping the horror that is islam.

you can run, you can hide, you cut & paste whatever you like, but UNTIL you grow up and are courageous to answer the tough questions that i posed to you a few months ago (that, like a coward, you ignored and ignored and ignored) you will have NOTHING.

and YES i HAVE been to muslim countries, how about turkey, albania and malaysia? do they qualify? and, as i said, i have INTRICATE KNOWLEDGE of the muslim mindset by virtue of having lived amongst and had MANY CLOSE arab friends for a long time.

as much as you try and discredit me, there's no getting away from the fact that i know what i'm talking about.

i'm sorry to sound abusive to you, but i got SICK AND TIRED of you EVADING my questions and pretending you'd answered my criticisms when you had done NO SUCH THING.

and about travel to muslim countries - i never said a westerners were in imminent danger in travelling to muslim countries (although they certainly DO need to watch their backs).

 

[candletrader]

Daniel_M:

Macedonia is currently highly unstable, as a result of inter-communal antipathy between Christians and Muslims there... at least we did some good work on your neighbor Serbia, by bombing the Serbian Terrorists into dog meat and protecting the Kosovan Muslims from Serbian Terrorism... I would in fact be supportive of a UN-mandated, US led force that goes into Macedonia in order to help protect the Muslim minority from the Questionable Policies of the Macedonian Government... I would also support the West's continued training of the brave and heroic Kosovan Liberation Army (KLA) which could be used in Macedonia as a regional force to protect the Muslims there...

The Serbian war was a moral war that the USA fought, and I fully suport the USA in its bombing of those Serbian terrorists, in order to help the Muslim victims of Serbian Terror...

The problem is that Iraq is not about Terror, its about oil... remember, there was no oil in Serbia, and the war was a morally just war, in which we defeated the Terror of Serbia... unlike Milosevic, Saddam is a creation of US foreign policy and was used as a puppet by the USA to gas the Iranians... but ever since Saddam has failed to kneel before its Imperial Master, the US has seen fit to oust its former client state in order to regain control by proxy of Iraqi oil reserves...

Regards,
Candle

 

[traderfut2000]

Candle,

Now I understand
I did not know that. My god even in macedonia muslims are hated that way... We really live in a sad world.
This is a link I just found on Google.
http://islam.org.au/articles/31/english/e-macedonia10.pdf

I understand the vehemence of Daniel, it just the incranation of the fascits state where he lives and he is giving lessons to the world. You're a real bastard man.

TF

Quote from candletrader:

Daniel_M:

Macedonia is currently highly unstable, as a result of inter-communal antipathy between Christians and Muslims there... at least we did some good work on your neighbor Serbia, by bombing the Serbian Terrorists into dog meat and protecting the Kosovan Muslims from Serbian Terrorism... I would in fact be supportive of a UN-mandated, US led force that goes into Macedonia in order to help protect the Muslim minority from the Terroristic Policies of the Macedonian Government... I would also support the West's continued training of the brave and heroic Kosovan Liberation Army (KLA) which could be used in Macedonia as a regional force to protect the Muslims there...

The Serbian war was a moral war that the USA fought, and I fully suport the USA in its bombing of those Serbian terrorists, in order to help the Muslim victims of Serbian Terror...

The problem is that Iraq is not about Terror, its about oil... remember, there was no oil in Serbia, and the war was a morally just war, in which we defeated the Terror of Serbia... unlike
Milosevic, Saddam is a creation of US foreign policy and was used as a puppet by the USA to gas the Iranians... but ever since Saddam has failed to kneel before its Imperial Master, the US has seen fit to oust its former client state in order to regain control by proxy of Iraqi oil reserves...

Regards,
Candle

n

 

[daniel_m]

Quote from traderfut2000:

You're a complete asshole man.

Last time you said to me you never went to a muslim country and now you pretend you have been to Turkey and Malysia.
So not only you are an asshole you are also a "LIAR". (period)

go screw yourself idiot. i've never been to an arab country.

turkey and malaysia (and even albania!) are obviously a lot more enlightened than your typical arab rathole, which is why they don't directly compare.

you didn't answer a damn thing you lying piece of shit!

would you like to go over it all again with me? and this time, instead of running away like a scared rat, face up to the questions?

i'd be happy to go over it again..

 

[traderfut2000]

In the dire aftermath of the Balkans in 1912, through which the Muslims
lost via the international conspiracy against them, the Republic of
Macedonia was born, beside Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia, which formed
the Yugoslav Republic. The Yugoslav constitution provided minimal guarantees
for Albanian Muslim rights, providing them with the right to education,
the publication of newspapers in their own (Albanian) language,
amongst other things.
When the Yugoslav Republic fragmented, Macedonia declared
its independence on the 8th of September, 1991, and created
a racist constitution, forbidding the Albanian Muslims,
who represent 40% of the Macedonian population, from
all of their political, social, civil and national rights. The
orthodox Slavs gave themselves full control over activities of
the state, even though their population only amounted to 30%
of the total population. The remaining population are amounted to
12% Turks, Bomak, and Bosnian Muslims, and the final 18%
are Serbs, Croatian and other minorities.

 

[traderfut2000]

I am really sorry to speak that way.
But when I read what the Orthodox are doing to 40% of your own population that's a real pity.

I know what the serbs did to bosnians and the genocide they did and I just discover that your country is another fascist state that practises ethnic cleansing and discrimination over 40% of its own population.

Let's just say There is not debate with fascist like you.

So go back to your country instead of poluting australian beaches

Quote from daniel_m:



go screw yourself idiot. i've never been to an arab country.

turkey and malaysia (and even albania!) are obviously a lot more enlightened than your typical arab rathole, which is why they don't directly compare.

you didn't answer a damn thing you lying piece of shit!

would you like to go over it all again with me? and this time, instead of running away like a scared rat, face up to the questions?

i'd be happy to go over it again..

 

[daniel_m]

thanks candletrader, it's always nice to be educated by an outsider about the situation in your own country.

i'm not sure if you were trying to be inflammatory there; give me a taste of my own medicene maybe?

it doesn't bother me one bit.

if the above is truly what u think, i must in all honesty say, you are even more deluded than i already thought.

yes, albanians in kosovo did suffer at the hands of serb militia and army in the late 90s. but if you think they are completely innocent children in the matter, you don't know what you are talking about.

yugolsavia had every right to combat terrorism from the KLA, which was occurring on its own doorstep! (let alone half way across the world, like the USA in afghan) certainly some of the methods used later were completely, totally unaccpetable, but the crimes committed by KLA were very, very real and warranted SOME kind of response; just not the response that ultimately arrived. (remember, that saga was unfolding over decades, not the few months of air time it got on TV here...)

"the war was just a moral war". lol. no, there wasn't oil, but the stand against the milosevic government certainly had a geopolitical side to it. certainly not "just a moral war".

"terroristic policies of the macedonian government" hahahaha!
candletrader, do you really think it's proper to talk of things you obviously know precious little about? i'm sure you are just trying to rile me up with that one, so i'll let it slip.

i'm not denying that there are very real ethnic tensions in macedonia - but nowhere near the extent in croatia, bosnia or kosovo, i can assure you of that!
if you think the albanian macedonians are blameless victims, though, you would truly know not what you talk about. (and there are just as many cases of slav macedonian victims for me throw back at you too.)

both sides preach age old stories of hatred to their children. both sides are equally to blame. it's detestable, but that's the balkans for ya! but please get educated before you make more unfounded accusations (and make a bigger fool of yourself on ET).

there are, on the other hand, MANY from both sides happily co-existing. albanians are represented in government even more than their proportion of the total national population. this story should, in all likelihood, have a happy ending.

if you wanna point to other aspects wrong with macedonia - knock yourself out. there's quite a lot there! if they're true, you won't find me hiding and running.

 

[stu]

Traderfut

If you hadn't lost your case before you have now. Your response to provocation is to spew out worse insult.

You have a bad agenda, obviously from your outburst it is clear that it is as intolerant and as worthless as your worst adversary's.

Time to go back to cut & paste it seems

 

[candletrader]

Thankfully, our alliance with the brave heroes of the Kosovan Liberation Army (KLA) and our effective killing off of the Serbian Terrorists has led to the establishment of a democratic Serbia... moreover, I am pleased that the persecuted Kosovan Muslims can now can move freely within their Kosovan homeland, without fear of being shot...

So you see, I do not condemn all US foreign policy... the US foreign policy implemented in Serbia had a truly moral outcome...

The civilized world can be grateful to the USA for forming an alliance with the heroes of the Kosovan Liberation Army in order to rid the world of Serbian Terrorism...

As I have consistently maintained, however, there is no moral equivalence between the war against the Serbian Terrorists and the war against Saddam... the latter is purely a war for oil... however much we despise Saddam (and he is indeed despicable) we would be foolhardy to bomb him in order to take his oil... there is absolutely no moral basis for this war and there is a real lack of global consensus on it, the vast majority of the world being solidly opposed...

 

[rs7]

Quote from traderfut2000:

When Rs7, talks about palestinian as being murderers, badly educated and gypsies, I can just be disgusted by a mind that is so biased.

Well, it is hard to join the party coming in late. I haven't (nor do I intend to) read through this entire thread. However, looking at the last few pages, seems like the usual suspects are at the usual topic.

Which is fine. Freedom of speech and expression, and all that.

It is never going to surprise anyone where my friend Daniel_M stands on his view of Islam (or in ffl, which sadly is tied with me on top and killed us all in points this week). Nor will it surprise anyone where my friend Traderfut stands in the first matter.

Interestingly, I really do like to think of both these guys as my "friends". I respect them both, and empathize to a degree with both opposing sides of the Islam as bad/good deal.

But I am a bit shocked to see the above quote from TF. I hope it is due to a misunderstanding of my meaning. Possibly due to a language barrier. Or whatever. But NEVER did I mean to imply that Palestinians where badly educated murderers. Or Gypsies.

What I DID mean to say, and I thought I spelled it out quite clearly, was that too many Palestinians are indeed under-educated. And too many, though thankfully a very small sampling of them, are indeed murderous. But to generalize? I never, ever meant to, nor did I stereotype Palestinians as a group consisting of a majority, or even a significant percentage of them as such.

What I said was that their LEADERS seem to have a greater interest in achieving a "victory" (against Israel) than they seem to have in furthering the educational, social, and economic causes of their constituents. I said that there is far too much poverty amongst the Palestinian people. I would be amazed to hear a different view even from TF. Any poverty is too much, no?

As for the "Gypsy" comment. All I said was that, from what I understand (what I have been told, I haven't first hand knowledge) is that presently in Paris, the poverty among the Palestinian (or perhaps it is more accurately Arab) population there has spawned an atmosphere of fear and crime. It is my understanding that the degree of pickpocketing and panhandling has led to the result that in many public places where tourists usually congregate, there are recorded announcements playing on public address systems warning tourists not to stop and engage in conversation with the "locals". Who, apparently are in large numbers arabs if not Palestinians specifically. TF...you are in Paris, so maybe you can clear this up for me. Meanwhile I don't even remember if what I said (or what I was told) was about Palestinians, or about Arabs. The reference to gypsies would be apparent if this is indeed the case. But as I said, I have not been there myself in many years, and what I heard is from a friend that visits there frequently.

So please, understand that I do not mean to disparage the Palestinian people. It is their leadership I abhor. I think it is clear that there could easily have been peace if not for the poor leadership of Arafat. I know this will evoke an anti-Sharon response from TF. The song remains the same. If Arafat were gone, then Sharon would be gone also. It is a never ending circle of shame. On both sides.

As far as Daniel's position, it is hard to refute what he says. The Koran clearly demands the killing of the infidels. But this does not mean that this is taken literally by all Muslims. The Judeo-Christian Bible has the same kinds of calls to violence. Therefore, both Daniel and I agree that organized religion, especially as practiced by extremists and fundamentalists is a very dangerous thing in today's world.

TF, you know I was brought up in a Jewish family. My wife works in American/Israeli relations. But neither my wife nor I have anything against the Palestinian people. Or the arab peoples. Or Muslims. It is a matter of their LACK of leadership. And as far as I am concerned, I have as little use for practicing Judaism as I do any other religion. I admire the jewish culture, and I think that it has contributed much to the world. As has Islam. But not in a religious way. (At least not since the Ten Commandments as far as I am concerned). Purely in social and progressive ways. Lately, it seems, there is not much to be said about Islam having anything to do with PROGRESS. The vocal elements of Islam right now are not strongly opposing the violence and anti-western sentiment that seems to be growing out of control. Where are the peace loving Islamic leaders so desperately needed today??

Peace,
rs7