POLL: The repercussions of a US attack on Iraq

[traderfut2000]

This is your point of view and let me say I don't agree with you.
Have you been to a muslim country lately ??? Apparently from what you said NEVER.

But every year you have hundreds of thousands of people that go to egypt, Syria, Turkey .... and I can say that all my european friends never say to me we were agressed physically or those people simple hated us... On the contrary they were really astonished and charmed by their hospitality.

So How come, if they really hate europeans and they want to kill them that every year so many european go to muslim countries.

Because of the sun?? I think there are many subby places on our planet.
Because of culture. Certainly for one part. The birth of the world civilization is in the middle east. Irak, Syria, Jordania, Palestine...

But, I think that if they go there it is also because they are really welcomed. If not they are not that crazy. I have been to turkey as a tourist and to Egypt and I can tell you that I was charmed and that we were really welcomed.

Concerning the terrorists.
First they are a minority, nothing comparted to the 1 billion muslim living on our planet.
2nd these events are shocking and striking but they are scarce compared to all the people that go on holiday and they do harm to civilians and to the people of the country themselves....

But yet again, one has to change the way he views terrorism. If you say ok arab hate us and they throw bomb to kill us because they hate us, then your perception misses a big part of the picture.

But If you say ok Israel for instance destroy the houses of palestinians, kill their children throw bombs and missiles day in day out. Then you will better understand terrorism and their roots. I don't think that arabs hate the west blindly, I would even say they really don't hate them that much when you see what the west does. But till when. One day the anger will be bigger and bigger and then you will have a real explosion... and the world economy will stop. Don't forget they have the oil and so without it the world economy will stop.

Quote from daniel_m:

make the effort to understand what TF?

i have gone to great lengths to understand islam. and from those investigations i conclude that islam is a load of bullshit, just like every other religion, and, furthermore, it leads to the most freedom constricting, primitive, backwards way of life on earth.

i've also been able to discover that is the MUSLIMS who will never be satisfied with non-muslims, and it is THEY who are doing the preaching of death to non-muslims and the rest of usual crap; that it is, by and large, the muslims doing all the hating; that it is the MUSLIMS who are INTOLERANT of other ways of life, not the other way around.

i think i've understood islam just fine.

 

[traderfut2000]

Are you joking man.

The west imported massively muslim people because they needed slaves to work for them and do the jobs the white man did not want to do... Don't forget that. There was no tolerance or generousity or whatsoever in that immigration.

Moreover, the west stealed all the resources from arab countries and african countries. and those african countries are becoming poorer and poorer because of the west. Not because they are lazy. Those people have suffered just too much.

So stop talking about generosity talk about stealing natural resources exploiting people....

Wake up man and study well. your sources are just wrong and false

Quote from daniel_m:

bahahahahah! TOLERANCE? what a joke!
muslims don't know the meaning of the word!

you know, i, myself, would very much like to go and see this great tolerance in Mecca. oops, but since i'm not a muslim, i'm not allowed in. so much for tolerance.

the west lets muslims enter their countries and establish livelihoods just like back in the "old country". no problem. the people in the west are understanding and supportive of different cultures. eg woman in miami doesn't have to uncover her head for drivers licence ID photo. THAT is tolerance.

woman decides to walk in downtown Tehran wearing a short skirt. i'd LOVE to see the reaction. tolerance? please!

 

[traderfut2000]

BOGDAN DOPANSKI (now Bogdan Ataullah Kopanski): Originally Polish, now American; Ph.D. in history and politics, had a very interesting journey to Islam and faced severe hardships; was imprisoned twice by the Polish communist regime (1968, 1981-82). He embraced Islam in 1974. (3)

"When I was 12 years old I rejected illogical and contradictory faith of the Church. Two years later in 1962 - I was fascinated by victorious struggle of the Algerian Muslim mujahideen against French colonialism. It was the first ARROW of Islam.... The high school and earliest days of my education in the University, I was a typical example of 'rebel generation' of Reds.... My way to the truth of Al-Qur'an was slow and unpaved.... In 1974 I visited Turkey, I wrote my M.A. dissertation about Sultan and Caliph Suleiman Kanuni's policy towards the Polish Kingdom. There, I was hit by the most beautiful voice of mankind, the ADHAN, the call to prayer. My hair stood up. An unknown powerful force led me to old masjid in Istanbul. There, old smiling Turkish, bearded men taught me WUZU, ablution. I confessed to tears SHAHADAH and I prayed my first SALAH Maghrib.... I swept out the rubbish ideologies.... The first time in my life, my mind was relaxed and I felt pleasure of Allah's love in my heart. I was a Muslim...."

HERBERT HOBOHM (now Aman Hobohm): German diplomat, missionary and social worker. An intellectual who has been serving the German diplomatic missions in various parts of the world. Presently working as Cultural Attache in German Embassy in Riyadh. He embraced Islam in 1941. (5)

"I have lived under different systems of life and have had the opportunity of studying various ideologies, but have come to the conclusion that none is perfect as Islam. None of the systems has got a complete code of a noble life. Only Islam has it; and that is why good men embrace it. Islam is not theoretical; it is practical. It means complete submission to the will of God."

CAT STEVENS (now Yousuf Islam): British; formerly a Christian and a world famous pop singer. He embraced Islam in 1973. (6)

"It will be wrong to judge Islam in the light of the behavior of some bad Muslims who are always shown on the media. It is like judging a car as a bad one if the driver of the car is drunk and he bangs it into the wall. Islam guides all human beings in the daily life - in its spiritual, mental and physical dimensions. But we must find the sources of these instructions, the Qur'an and the example of the Prophet. Then we can see the ideal of Islam."

WILFRIED HOFMAN (now Murad Hofman): Ph.D. in law (Harvard); German social scientist and diplomat; presently German Ambassador in Algeria. He embraced Islam in 1980. (8)

"For some time now, striving for more and more precision and brevity, I have tried to put on paper, in a systematic way, all philosophical truths, which in my view, can be ascertained beyond reasonable doubt. In the course of this effort it dawned on me that the typical attitude of an agnostic is not an intelligent one; that man simply cannot escape a decision to believe; that the createdness of what exists around us is obvious; that Islam undoubtedly finds itself in the greatest harmony with overall reality. Thus I realize, not without shock, that step by step, in spite of myself and almost unconsciously, in feeling and thinking I have grown into a Muslim. Only one last step remained to be taken: to formalize my conversion. As of today I am a Muslim. I have arrived."

CASSIUS CLAY (now Muhammad Ali): American; three times World Heavyweight Champion, formerly a Christian. He embraced Islam in 1965. (9)

"I have had many nice moments in my life. But the feelings I had while standing on Mount Arafat on the day of HAJJ (Muslims' pilgrimage), was the most unique. I felt exalted by the indescribable spiritual atmosphere there as over a million and a half pilgrims invoked God to forgive them of their sins and bestow on them His choicest blessings. It was an exhilarating experience to see people belonging to different colors, races and nationalities, kings, heads of states and ordinary men from very poor countries all clad in two simple white sheets praying to God without any sense of either pride or inferiority. It was a practical manifestation of the concept of equality in Islam."

 

[stu]

Your'e keen on cut & paste I know that much traderfut,

However this sounds a little more balanced spin ....unlike yours

'Have you heard, Chelsea Clinton is about to become a Muslim?' This is now commonly heard among Muslims, especially in the US. 'Yes. And if it had not been for that terrible car crash, princess Diana would have married Dodi and she, too, would have embraced Islam. Then there would have been Muslim heirs to the British throne.' This theory concludes that there must have been a plot to eliminate Diana to preclude such a possibility.

Some Muslims have spun similar stories about Yusuf Islam, formerly the singer Cat Stevens. To his credit, wherever Yusuf Islam has lectured, he has told Muslims to worship only Allah and not humans. This message, unfortunately, seems lost on many Muslims. It is interesting to note that Yusuf Islam did not discover the deen of Allah through the effort of any Muslim but by reading the Qur'an himself. He says that his own brother (a non-Muslim) gave him an English translation of the Qur'an. He did not read it for about three years. Then one day, he picked it and was fascinated. This is how he was led to Islam.

There are many people in North America, Europe and other places who have entered the fold of Islam. Islam is enriched by the presence of the diverse groups of people who have entered its fold. All to often such people are looked down on by born Muslims, for racist, classist or nationalist reasons. This is entirely counter to Islam. It is the quality of these individuals, not their station in life, that matters.

The challenge facing Muslims today is to present a model of the decent individual who is caring and compassionate and who provides inspiration by his or her own example.

Zafar Bangash

cut & paste , cut & paste, more & more cut & paste

 

[traderfut2000]

This is a very interesting post even if you seems very agressive towards me. I don't know what I have done to you but well I know That I have never done harm to anybody and yet many people hate me in your countries because of may faith or my race. That is very sad.

Wheras for the cut and paste.
I will give you a challenge ... Go over my posts and they are not a few and check how many cut and pastes. You will notice there are not that many.

More than that all the cut and paste are done with the intent to answer a question with solid arguments.

Of course you like to say that youi would prefer my own response and I will tell you that I am humble enough to know that I do not possess the truth and I am humble enough to read the others and to appreciate the otehrs sayings..

 

[traderfut2000]

Quote from stu:

There are many people in North America, Europe and other places who have entered the fold of Islam. Islam is enriched by the presence of the diverse groups of people who have entered its fold. All to often such people are looked down on by born Muslims, for racist, classist or nationalist reasons. This is entirely counter to Islam. It is the quality of these individuals, not their station in life, that matters.

Completely agree with that post. On one billion muslims all of them are not that good. But you will agree with me that the same applies to all the other religions.

What I dislike the most are the lies about a religion or about its people.

 

[stu]

Of course you like to say that you would prefer my own response and I will tell you that I am humble enough to know that I do not possess the truth and I am humble enough to read the others and to appreciate the others sayings..


In my opinion, you are better exploring your own understandings than parroting others' thoughts with cut & paste in your haste to try and make a point. You may stand a chance of developing your own "truth" which would at least lead you to be more honest , in my opinion.

And whatever you say, many people would hate me in some Muslim countries as well....... many people hate protestants in catholic countries. You are coming across consistently as someone with a chip on their shoulder, instead of someone with a valid point to discuss. You appear incapable of seeing that.

Nevertheless, you should be agreeing, in my opinion , with the last paragraph most of all.

The challenge facing Muslims today is to present a model of the decent individual who is caring and compassionate and who provides inspiration by his or her own example.

It means including the unconditional rejection of murderous violence in the name of mulims and Islam, without always conditioning it upon the premise that "others do murderous violence so it is understandable". I do not get that impression from Islamic leaders en masse.
Neither do I see their holy books being openly questioned and tested as is generally done with just about everything in the western world. Perhaps it's my ignorance but I can assure you I do try to look for outright open rejection of violence and the examination of religious ideology from muslim states, but they are hard to find.

What I dislike the most are the lies about a religion or about its people.

Me too , so to offer lies and mistruths and denials as a response instead of considered measured thought and opinion,( you occasionaly do ) which I think RS7 has offered in quite a few of his responses to you, you tend to swamp with printed rhetoric and get heavy on the defense of Islam, whilst ignoring the points being made.Resulting in no discussion no credibility

that's just my opinion .

 

[traderfut2000]

You're just not objective.
You want to see me the way you see me today. And you keep on feeding the propaganda that says that muslims hate westeners.

And I would say that this is certainly the contrary. If the west is open in many ways there is only one on which it is closed and it is the muslim religion.

Just to tell you that when Cat Stevens disagreed with the US intervention in Irak on 1990, which was highly debatable, americans burned his disks in public. This is what we can call open mindedness. When Rs7, talks about palestinian as being murderers, badly educated and gypsies, I can just be disgusted by a mind that is so biased.

One million european demonstrated in florence for stopping the Israeli aggression on palestinian people and 500,000 in London.

What you believe in in the US is highly debatable in Europe. Europeans have the chance to go to muslim countries and to have a real image of real people not propaganda written by CIA agents.

So I am open to the debate and I often bring to the table strong and solid arguments. But till the beginning Stu, I am sorry to say that like a broken record you keep on repeating to me the same things but you bring nothing to the table.

I had at first a very strong and violent debate with Candle who was having an extreme position on muslim and arabs. It was something like we have to kill them all, burn them and so on. Least to say I was outraged. But Candle as a reasonable man took the time to study and search for the truth not the one that is distilled in the media and that serves industrial and lobby interests but the one that serves our humanity.

If you are ready to do your homework and bring solid arguments then I am your man. but if you keep on repeating the same things then forget about me.

 

[traderfut2000]

Quote from stu:


In my opinion, you are better exploring your own understandings than parroting others' thoughts with cut & paste in your haste to try and make a point. You may stand a chance of developing your own "truth" which would at least lead you to be more honest , in my opinion.

Who tells you I do not haver my own truth. Contrary to you (by the way I do not know you) I speak several languages, been to numerous countries and I can tell you that I have my own truth, yet I am not ashamed to post good articles. Why??? Because since the beginning whenever, I would say something a moron will say to me hey arab you hate us and you are blind. So usually what I do is find a nice western chap that brings solid arguments and that has quite the same ideas on the subject. and in that case, I am told that I am just cutting and pasting. But we never ever give a judgement on the article because you don't want to read it or even to belive in what is written in this article. there are evidences and you don't want to see them.

And whatever you say, many people would hate me in some Muslim countries as well....... many people hate protestants in catholic countries. You are coming across consistently as someone with a chip on their shoulder, instead of someone with a valid point to discuss. You appear incapable of seeing that.

Never said that muslim did not hate the europeans but muslim were much more tolerant of the others than the christain no doubt about that.

It means including the unconditional rejection of murderous violence in the name of mulims and Islam, without always conditioning it upon the premise that "others do murderous violence so it is understandable". I do not get that impression from Islamic leaders en masse.
Neither do I see their holy books being openly questioned and tested as is generally done with just about everything in the western world. Perhaps it's my ignorance but I can assure you I do try to look for outright open rejection of violence and the examination of religious ideology from muslim states, but they are hard to find.

Who tells you that. Whenever there is a terrorist attack it is condemned all over the muslim world by all the head of states whereas when Israel lauch a bomb violates all the UN resolutions you say ok they are defending themselves.

Me too , so to offer lies and mistruths and denials as a response instead of considered measured thought and opinion,( you occasionaly do ) which I think RS7 has offered in quite a few of his responses to you, you tend to swamp with printed rhetoric and get heavy on the defense of Islam, whilst ignoring the points being made.Resulting in no discussion no credibility

Look let's jut say I am a don quichotte. May be I am fighting the wind. But hey you are a bunch of guys who have the same extreme ideas and I don't like that.

Peace

 

[stu]

you did it again

AND you say I'M agressive toward you !! LMAO