POLL: The repercussions of a US attack on Iraq

Which of these is most likely?

  • Co-ordinated large-scale bombings of shopping malls and offices (similar to September 11, but not us

    Votes: 12 133.3%
  • Biological attacks on schools, malls, airports etc

    Votes: 5 55.6%
  • Highly co-ordinated machine gun mow-downs of crowds by suicide gangs

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • One person suicide bombings (similar to that carried out by Hamas) co-ordinated across numerous smal

    Votes: 30 333.3%
  • Devastating car bombs set to go off amongst traffic queues of commuters crawling into work in the ru

    Votes: 3 33.3%
  • It won't be as obvious as any of the above, but it will make September 11 look like a wasp bite com

    Votes: 26 288.9%
  • No repercussions

    Votes: 95 1,055.6%

  • Total voters
    9
Some Israeli/Palestinian History

Many if not most Arabs were forcibly driven off their historic land. Some 800,000 of the approximately 900,000 Palestinians who originally lived in the area that became Israel were forced to flee as a result of a systematic campaign of intimidation, massacres and internationally recognized ethnically-motivated mass expulsions. When the Jewish state was created, approximately 400 Palestinian towns and villages were depopulated by Jewish armed groups under the cover of the war, and were razed to the ground.

Instead of these crucial details, what we get from Oren is an image of pastoral Zionist bliss, of pure and progressive civilization struggling to survive in the midst of the dark and hostile Orient: “Drawing on Western and East European models, the Jews of Palestine created new vehicles for Agrarian settlement..., a viable socialist economy with systems for national health, reforestation, and infrastructure development, a respectable university, and a symphony orchestra — and to defend them all, an underground citizens army...”

Even if true, this is like saying “At least Mussolini made the buses run on time!” or “Hitler loved Wagner and promoted opera!” So what, any decent person would respond, if the cost was the persecution and ethnic cleansing of millions? It is by utilizing this kind of romantic nonsense that Zionists have since promoted the image of Israel as a little outpost of vulnerable civilization and democracy surrounded by a mass of Arab Jew-haters, forever at risk of being smashed into oblivion by the illogical and backward Arab mob. And on this count, Oren does not disappoint. Israel, he writes in language that observers of Israeli political rhetoric will find only too familiar, “had nowhere to fall back to but the sea”. The barbaric Arab society, meanwhile, “patriarchal, capped by totalitarian regimes, dwindling employment opportunities, low levels of health care were endemic to most of the Arab world... was hardly ripe for progress.”

Ben-Gurion, Israel’s first prime minister, is presented by Oren as a hero who despite everything “refused to despair”, and whose cunning and brilliance saved the new Israel against those barbaric, corrupt Arab aggressors. His passion for Ben-Gurion is equaled only by his apparent contempt for everything Gamal Abdul Nasser stood for. Everything bad Nasser did is thoroughly documented. Nothing bad the Israeli leaders did is documented. The following statement by Yitzhak Rabin on Ben-Gurion for example would have provided a bit of balance and useful context: “We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, ‘What is to be done with the Palestinian population?’ Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said ‘Drive them out!’”

Whenever Israel goes on the offensive in Oren’s account, it is always “in reprisal for guerrilla attacks”. And even then, when there is clearly documented evidence that war crimes were committed, he tries to excuse the parties involved by adding little disclaimers, even for the butcher Ariel Sharon: “Israeli commandos led by Major Ariel Sharon blew up dozens of houses, killing sixty-nine civilians — inadvertently, he claimed.”

What should matter here to the “objective” historian is not what Sharon claimed happened, but what history says happened. Elsewhere, the fashionable word “terrorist” is repeatedly used, but exclusively to define actions by Palestinian-led resistance organizations. Then as now, no Israeli, it would appear, is ever capable of provoking a “terrorist” act, let alone engaging in one.

Perhaps most damning is Oren’s treatment of the issue of colonialism. Almost needless to say, Soviet support for the Arab world in the context of the Cold War is well-documented. The confusion — or, more likely, deliberate obfuscation — arises over the question of why France, and then the United States, threw their support behind Israel.

“Finally an alliance was formed (between Israel) and France,” writes Oren, “which was also at war with Arab nationalism — in Algeria — and which shared Israel’s socialist ideals.”

Excuse me? The link between colonial France’s slaughter of one million innocent Algerians in a country it had no right to have occupied, and colonial Israel’s “war with Arab nationalism” in a country it too had no right to have occupied, and from which it had thrown almost a million Arabs, could hardly be said to have anything to do with “socialism”. To suggest otherwise, as Oren does, is to enter the realms of fantasy and idiocy uncharted even by academics of the ultra-right. However, Oren is thankfully nothing if not inconsistent when it comes to the little tricks he plays with history, and he later unwittingly undermines himself by revealing the true colonialist basis of the analogy: “Citing the Algerians’ recent victory over France — a victory that owed much to Nasser’s support — (the Syrians’) called for a ‘people’s war’ to destroy the Zionist plot.”

Yes indeed. But why the mocking phrase “Zionist plot”? Maybe because to replace it with “the same kind of destructive and illegitimate colonial forces” might be to steer too dangerously near the truth.

The United States’ support for Israel is a much simpler matter according to Oren. In 1964, Israel’s Prime Minister Levi Eshkol visited Johnson and told him: “We cannot survive if we experience again what happened to us under Hitler.” As a result, Johnson “gave Israel $52 million in civilian aid.” Now wasn’t that nice of the altruistic Mr. President, who of course had not a colonialist intention in his administration!

Unsurprisingly, it turns out that Oren is well-trained in insidiously subverting the truth for ideological ends as former adviser to the Israeli delegation to the United Nations, an organization that has done its utmost over the past 50 years, at the behest of the United States, to ensure Israel gets away with its perpetual war crimes.

The final nail in the coffin — or rather, two nails in the coffin — of “Six Days of War” as a serious academic undertaking comes in the form of “advance acclaim” on the back cover. One endorsement is from Ehud Barak, former prime minister of Israel and previously chief of staff of its terrorist outfit ironically called the Israeli Defense Forces, an extreme right-winger who as recently as 2000 likened the Palestinians to “crocodiles,” explaining: “The more you give them meat, the more they want.” Another quotation is from Martin Peretz, publisher of The New Republic, an ultra-right campaigning American political journal that has long been defined by its crude Zionist agenda.
 
Thanks for quoting it

Regards


TF

Quote from wild:

Quote from max401

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from wild:

do American travelers need an entry visa for France ... or don´t they ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pay attention; asked and answered.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

alright ... next question:

is war a racket?

regards

wild

if asked i would support this "anti-American" view ... fulheartedly:

WAR IS A RACKET

Smedley Darlington Butler
Major General - United States Marine Corps [Retired]
...

WAR is a racket. It always has been.

It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.

A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small "inside" group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.

In the World War a mere handful garnered the profits of the conflict. At least 21,000 new millionaires and billionaires were made in the United States during the World War. That many admitted their huge blood gains in their income tax returns. How many other war millionaires falsified their tax returns no one knows.

How many of these war millionaires shouldered a rifle? How many of them dug a trench? How many of them knew what it meant to go hungry in a rat-infested dug-out? How many of them spent sleepless, frightened nights, ducking shells and shrapnel and machine gun bullets? How many of them parried a bayonet thrust of an enemy? How many of them were wounded or killed in battle?

Out of war nations acquire additional territory, if they are victorious. They just take it. This newly acquired territory promptly is exploited by the few – the selfsame few who wrung dollars out of blood in the war. The general public shoulders the bill.

And what is this bill?

This bill renders a horrible accounting. Newly placed gravestones. Mangled bodies. Shattered minds. Broken hearts and homes. Economic instability. Depression and all its attendant miseries. Back-breaking taxation for generations and generations.

For a great many years, as a soldier, I had a suspicion that war was a racket; not until I retired to civil life did I fully realize it. Now that I see the international war clouds gathering, as they are today, I must face it and speak out.

Again they are choosing sides. France and Russia met and agreed to stand side by side. Italy and Austria hurried to make a similar agreement. Poland and Germany cast sheep's eyes at each other, forgetting for the nonce [one unique occasion], their dispute over the Polish Corridor.

The assassination of King Alexander of Jugoslavia [Yugoslavia] complicated matters. Jugoslavia and Hungary, long bitter enemies, were almost at each other's throats. Italy was ready to jump in. But France was waiting. So was Czechoslovakia. All of them are looking ahead to war. Not the people – not those who fight and pay and die – only those who foment wars and remain safely at home to profit.

There are 40,000,000 men under arms in the world today, and our statesmen and diplomats have the temerity to say that war is not in the making.

Hell's bells! Are these 40,000,000 men being trained to be dancers?

Not in Italy, to be sure. Premier Mussolini knows what they are being trained for. He, at least, is frank enough to speak out. Only the other day, Il Duce in "International Conciliation," the publication of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, said:

"And above all, Fascism, the more it considers and observes the future and the development of humanity quite apart from political considerations of the moment, believes neither in the possibility nor the utility of perpetual peace... War alone brings up to its highest tension all human energy and puts the stamp of nobility upon the people who have the courage to meet it."

Undoubtedly Mussolini means exactly what he says. His well-trained army, his great fleet of planes, and even his navy are ready for war – anxious for it, apparently. His recent stand at the side of Hungary in the latter's dispute with Jugoslavia showed that. And the hurried mobilization of his troops on the Austrian border after the assassination of Dollfuss showed it too. There are others in Europe too whose sabre rattling presages war, sooner or later.

Herr Hitler, with his rearming Germany and his constant demands for more and more arms, is an equal if not greater menace to peace. France only recently increased the term of military service for its youth from a year to eighteen months.

Yes, all over, nations are camping in their arms. The mad dogs of Europe are on the loose. In the Orient the maneuvering is more adroit. Back in 1904, when Russia and Japan fought, we kicked out our old friends the Russians and backed Japan. Then our very generous international bankers were financing Japan. Now the trend is to poison us against the Japanese. What does the "open door" policy to China mean to us? Our trade with China is about $90,000,000 a year. Or the Philippine Islands? We have spent about $600,000,000 in the Philippines in thirty-five years and we (our bankers and industrialists and speculators) have private investments there of less than $200,000,000.

Then, to save that China trade of about $90,000,000, or to protect these private investments of less than $200,000,000 in the Philippines, we would be all stirred up to hate Japan and go to war – a war that might well cost us tens of billions of dollars, hundreds of thousands of lives of Americans, and many more hundreds of thousands of physically maimed and mentally unbalanced men.

Of course, for this loss, there would be a compensating profit – fortunes would be made. Millions and billions of dollars would be piled up. By a few. Munitions makers. Bankers. Ship builders. Manufacturers. Meat packers. Speculators. They would fare well.

Yes, they are getting ready for another war. Why shouldn't they? It pays high dividends.

But what does it profit the men who are killed? What does it profit their mothers and sisters, their wives and their sweethearts? What does it profit their children?

What does it profit anyone except the very few to whom war means huge profits?

Yes, and what does it profit the nation?

Take our own case. Until 1898 we didn't own a bit of territory outside the mainland of North America. At that time our national debt was a little more than $1,000,000,000. Then we became "internationally minded." We forgot, or shunted aside, the advice of the Father of our country. We forgot George Washington's warning about "entangling alliances." We went to war. We acquired outside territory. At the end of the World War period, as a direct result of our fiddling in international affairs, our national debt had jumped to over $25,000,000,000. Our total favorable trade balance during the twenty-five-year period was about $24,000,000,000. Therefore, on a purely bookkeeping basis, we ran a little behind year for year, and that foreign trade might well have been ours without the wars.

It would have been far cheaper (not to say safer) for the average American who pays the bills to stay out of foreign entanglements. For a very few this racket, like bootlegging and other underworld rackets, brings fancy profits, but the cost of operations is always transferred to the people – who do not profit.
...


CHAPTER TWO

WHO MAKES THE PROFITS?

CHAPTER THREE

WHO PAYS THE BILLS?

CHAPTER FOUR

HOW TO SMASH THIS RACKET!

CHAPTER FIVE

TO HELL WITH WAR!

http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm
 
So you call Wild a Nazy. Do you know or understand what it means???? Wild is against a war that has no real roots or aim except steal the oil of the Iraqi people and that is supported by a racist agenda. This for me is years away from Nazism. And As I said it before, stop accusing a man beacuse of his ancestors but judge him on what he is today.

I can call your attitude as being disgusting, since as I posted it before, the USa did worse to the bmack people during 3 centuries or more and has already forgeooten its evil acts. Yet, I know the american society has evolved and that the situation is completely different than 30 years ago. So consider it as being the same for germans...

So for me if you support war, you are certainly the nazi. The germans have evolved and are certainly more civilized than most other european countries. Don't forget that till the 60's, France and Great britain had their colonies and what they did was simply disgusting and could be comapred to the Nazi exactions. Don't forget that. There is no superior country, all of them were involved in killings and lurdering of millions of people.

May be "one day" the USA saved the world but it happened so long ago and they commited so many crimes after that, it becomes evident for me modern Nazis are not german anymore.


Quote from stu:[/i]


That sums it up then......couldn't care less.... about being labeled a Nazi ???

Explains a lot .
I have witnessed any credibility you may possibly have had completely evaporate.

Your "cleaning lady" wont be able to clear up the mess that leaves.

jeez , couldn't care less about being thought of as Nazi.....I wonder how many Germans feel that way ???
[/QUOTE]
 
Do you really live in the US????

Even, us in europe we know that there are nazi groups in the US and we all learned about the Klu Klux Klan and their crimes on the black society and even on the jewish or latin community...

"Initially, the prime targets of the white supremacists were African-Americans and any sympathetic whites, especially those belonging to the Radical Republican Party. After World War I, other minority groups such as Jews, Hispanics, Asians, or anybody they identified as foreign, were also subject to violent attacks. "












Quote from OPTIONAL777:



I would never have known about the website of the American Nazi Party's if not for Wild. Something I would not search for. Gee, thanks Wild.

Growing up in the 60's, there were many fringe element "societies" that no longer exist and some that do. It was fashionable in youth to try on their extremist views, but as life has its habit, maturation brings the ability to see more than one point of view.

The SDS, SLA, Black Panthers, John Birch Society, the KKK, etc. are/were all just minor factions that appeal to a small segment of our society.

Fortunately, we live in a country that allows such "societies" to exist and meet the needs of those who want to play out their fascist or ultra liberal tendencies. Kind of like nudist colonies. They exist because some people want them, but it is a minority of the population that participates in them.

If those who have those extremist tendencies are required to suppress them out of fear of punishment, they have the potential to become very dangerous, and a Ted Kaczynsky or Timothy McVeigh is a possible outcome due their sense of isolation and having no one to play cards with. They then exist in their own twisted world only, and an extremist living in their own world is a dangers mixture indeed.

That they exist doesn't mean they are representative of the society as a whole, and I pay them little to no attention until such time that they begin to seriously impact mainstream thought or mainstream society.

I believe Wild is a potentially dangerous man/woman/hermaphrodite (who knows) in that he is an unyielding extremist in his views and he practices internet isolation with his copy and paste approach to argumentation. He seems unwilling to engage in normal conversations or have debates on important issues based on his own life. He sees neither black or white, only one shade of gray (perhaps Nazi gray) that comes from a steady but dimly lit environment. People like this are dangerous as their intolerance of other points of view and unwillingness to discuss the issues based on their own life experiences and own thought process make them nothing but foot soldiers for whatever cause they sell themselves to.
 
Quote from fairplay,

since so many people here seem to be going after you because of your insistence on having the last word, may I ask you to let me/us know:

* did Germany not have some sort of a constitution in the 18th century?


hi fairply,

my reference to the American 18th century constitution is intended as a hint at the fact that it is a hopelessly outdated constitution. America is a one-party state (with "Republican" & "Democratic" wings) ruled by a corporate plutocracy represented by an appointed (not elected) plenipotentiary president. the American "elections" are a joke ... by European (and probably Indonesian) standards. would anyone outside the US of A dare calling the US supreme court´s ballot counting stop order and the ensuing appointment of G. W. Bush as president a democratic election process ... in your opinion ?

"Germany" as a modern national state didn´t exist in the 18th century. The Holy Roman Empire of German Nation (Sacrum Imperium Romanum Nationis Germanicae - Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation)

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/national/hre.htm#Name

ceased to exist with the so-called Reichsdeputationshauptschluß of February 25,1803

http://www.uni-wuerzburg.de/rechtsphilosophie/hdoc/reichsdeputationshauptschluss1803.html ... German

http://www.miniatures.de/html/int/campaigns/1803Reichsdeputation.html ... English

and the resignation of Franz II as Roman Emperor, German King etc. on August 6, 1806.

like Britain until today this empire didn´t have a written constitution. closest to what one could perhaps call a "constitution" was the "Goldene Bulle" of 1356.

http://www.wi2.uni-erlangen.de/NueTour/e/history/gbull.html


regards

wild
 
Very funny :)

200 years of democracy for white europeans certainly not for black slaves :)




Quote from OPTIONAL777:



50 years? Nice work. Check in with us after 200 years of a working democracy.
 
Pasting Contest-

C'mon TF, get with it, I think wild has the edge on you.

Don't forget: Extra points for quoting from fringe web sites.
 
Quote from OPTIONAL777:



Well, if you want to be a sticker for details you are correct. My point was that the United States has one of the longest running and most stable constitutional based records of democracy, the total number of years was not really the point. If you want to focus on the exact time of freedom, start from July 4th 1776 official date of the Declaration of Independence, or perhaps September 17, 1987

it gets even better: not 200 years but 16? I told you, get new batteries
is a better date, as that was the date the Constitutional Convention signed the final draft, or perhaps it was the ratification process....but what is the point?

America is an experiment, the United States of America is an experiment, and the longest running successful experiment in Democracy to date.

so you define democracy by the process and not by the contents of policies? Isn't that like - sorry if there are ladies here - saying: eat shit, because millions of flies cannot be wrong?

We have never had a King of the United states of America, never had a Dictator of the United States of America, never had a leader gain power though a military coup, etc.
Very nice, I do not know enough of American history, I just know that that democracy was built on the corpses of I do not know how many "red Indians". And that democracy could not resist slavery, which was only abolished when industrial production needed laborers and not slaves

Our leadership in the executive branch and the congressional branch are elected officials. The judicial branch are appointed by the executive branch, and then approved by the congressional branch.
The principles of division of powers were developped many thousand years ago, and for you westerners it was done in Greece from where you even got the word

Truly, the basis of our government and constitution are a model of success.
That kind of democracy that went to war in Vietnam? A model?

Now, is it perfect? Do we have events in our past to be ashamed of? Perhaps, perhaps we have learned and moved forward. Perhaps we have corrected our mistakes by admission of them.
Did the Germans have events in their past to be ashamed of? Probably, like every nation has.

America declared its independence from Britain, and fought a war to secure that independence.

Did Germany win a war of independence from the Nazis which led to adopting a democratic way of life?

As I said, American and European history is not my strength, but I also think that America owes a lot to Germany and Germans. Probably Mr Wild can cut and paste many examples. You even had some presidents with German names ( Roosevelt, Eisenhower), scientists (Albert Einstein) artists (Steven Spielberg) etc

Seems to me, that if it had not been for the efforts of the Yanks and the Brits, the german people on the whole were more than willing to go with the flow of Fascism and Nazism. Maybe, but most certainly they would have found on their side many Yanks, Brits and Dutch.

So I can't put them in the same category as Americans and our process to achieve freedom and democracy.

Perhaps the Germans have or will arrive at the same conclusions we did, but never forget that they were dragged goose stepping and kicking their way into freedom and democracy by their conquerors, not of their own volition of intentions.

In effect, we had to beat them into the Democratic way of life they now so proudly remind of us of.

We are happy that Germans have joined the ranks of freedom loving people, and we know they will be equally happy when the citizens of Iraq are allowed to join us and the rest of the free world once we eliminate Hussein and his dictatorial ways.

Germans, freedom loving, democratic Germans, of all people in this world should fully understand that. That we have a few leftist extremist who don't grok their own past, and continually post their nonsensical idead, who refuse to discuss the path Germany was forced to take to achieve the freedom they now enjoy...well, what can I say?
 
:)
I am not even trying to compete with Wild.
This guy is an artist in Pasting, and I really mean it an artist he has a gift and me I am just a hard worker.

TF



Quote from max401:

Pasting Contest-

C'mon TF, get with it, I think wild has the edge on you.

Don't forget: Extra points for quoting from fringe web sites.
 
Quote from traderfut2000:

I am not even trying to compete with Wild.
This guy is an artist in Pasting, and I really mean it an artist he has a gift and me I am just a hard worker.

A gift? Bwaaaahahahaha!
 
Back
Top