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Poll: Hershey vs. Covel
- Thread starter baro-san
- Start date
Huh?
Quote from On.Target:
If you have to ask that question you haven't figured "it" out yet.
I had dinner with a fund manager last week with $350M under his care and we talked about that very subject. He's 46, his fund is private and has averaged 60% a year for the last 12 years. He has an impressive list of clients that will swear up and down that he doesn't exist. He only works 3 days a week. He said he could make way more buy why?
He who dies with the most toys is dead.
While I get the fact that beyond a certain point the numbers become meaningless in this lifetime, let's not forget that Hershey claims that his trading method is pretty much a guaranteed profit machine. There's a huge difference between trying to make 60% "the hard way" and making it with ease, as Hershey claims to do. The guy talks about making money as if it were as easy as breathing (if you read his posts, it's like he's saying he can't not make money), so why wouldn't he "make way more"?
Having been around the trading game for a couple of decades has just made me allergic to hyperbole and hyperbole is all Hershey seems to spew.
Quote from logic_man:
While I get the fact that beyond a certain point the numbers become meaningless in this lifetime, let's not forget that Hershey claims that his trading method is pretty much a guaranteed profit machine. There's a huge difference between trying to make 60% "the hard way" and making it with ease, as Hershey claims to do. The guy talks about making money as if it were as easy as breathing (if you read his posts, it's like he's saying he can't not make money), so why wouldn't he "make way more"?
Having been around the trading game for a couple of decades has just made me allergic to hyperbole and hyperbole is all Hershey seems to spew.
You think my fund guy makes it "the hard way"? I'll pass that on to him. It will make his day.
If you took the time to learn what it is exactly he does then you could at least talk intelligently about what is or isn't possible. I had someone that took the time to learn it and he impressed the shit out me with his accuracy. He was an engineer as well. No offense but they have a hard time learning (and not screwing up) anything. He taught me the fundamentals, I applied it and it worked but as I said repeatedly . . . too damn hard for me in the time frames I trade.
My engineer buddy makes money trading Jacks stuff 16 out of 20 days a month. He loses 4 out of 20 days and those are small losing days. I can only imagine the teacher is a bit better than the student. Do I think Jack exaggerates? Absolutely. Does that mean what he does doesn't work? Absolutely not.
I have losing trades all of the time. My win rate each month is about 55% but my win/loss amounts are easily 2 to 2.5/1.
To add - my first job was phoning retirees to roll over their jumbo CDs for Hutton in 1980. I think my nearly 32 years in this industry has allowed me to see about everything. I'm an ok judge of character but I can tell BS a mile away. I saw Jack coming but like NoDoji said, he's brilliant, a bit out there but brilliant.
Quote from On.Target:
He doesn't have to prove anything, you have to prove to yourself it doesn't work. I proved it to myself that it worked but I didn't like it so I don't trade it. PERIOD! How I trade is completely different from his method and I persoanlly think it is easier but I don't trash his way just because its different.
Uh, the guy talks about making 3X the daily range of the S&P each day and trading 250 contracts. I'm supposed to take that prima facie? He has plenty to prove. Maybe you're brand new to trading, but there are plenty of ways he could and should prove such claims.
He could provide sanitized account statement (personal details blacked out), have someone audit his results, post live signals on the website of his choice (there are many), etc. His only attempt at proof was a miserable failure in a trading contest. He acts like he's a cross between Indiana Jones, Einstein and Paul Tudor Jones, but all evidence points to his financial failure. Want proof?
http://viralstash.com/financials/jack-hershey-broke-and-in-debt-to-the-tax-man-3
I hope you see this before it gets deleted. That always seems to happen here as someone here is watching out for Uncle Jack.
You said either you (or maybe just your friend) is an engineer. Seriously? And you're perfectly happy accepting anecdotal evidence for something that could be analyzed via industry metrics and hard stats? Amazing.
Quote from jsp326:
Uh, the guy talks about making 3X the daily range of the S&P each day and trading 250 contracts. I'm supposed to take that prima facie? He has plenty to prove. Maybe you're brand new to trading, but there are plenty of ways he could and should prove such claims.
He could provide sanitized account statement (personal details blacked out), have someone audit his results, post live signals on the website of his choice (there are many), etc. His only attempt at proof was a miserable failure in a trading contest. He acts like he's a cross between Indiana Jones, Einstein and Paul Tudor Jones, but all evidence points to his financial failure. Want proof?
http://viralstash.com/financials/jack-hershey-broke-and-in-debt-to-the-tax-man-3
I hope you see this before it gets deleted. That always seems to happen here as someone here is watching out for Uncle Jack.
You said either you (or maybe just your friend) is an engineer. Seriously? And you're perfectly happy accepting anecdotal evidence for something that could be analyzed via industry metrics and hard stats? Amazing.
That post was written by Jack's serial stalker, who has at LEAST 50 aliases. Ask any mod.
As far a proving things go. He is not selling anything. What is there to prove? If a person does not like what someone is cooking just go to another kitchen. It is a rather profound form of insecurity to feel like you need a group of people to go with you. If you are the only wise man and everyone else are fools, then be the only wise man and let everyone else be fools. That fact that some are troubled by how many fools follow Jack's writings is a sign that these so called wise men are insecure.
Just how wise can an insecure person be?
Quote from jsp326:
Uh, the guy talks about making 3X the daily range of the S&P each day and trading 250 contracts. I'm supposed to take that prima facie? He has plenty to prove. Maybe you're brand new to trading, but there are plenty of ways he could and should prove such claims.
He could provide sanitized account statement (personal details blacked out), have someone audit his results, post live signals on the website of his choice (there are many), etc. His only attempt at proof was a miserable failure in a trading contest. He acts like he's a cross between Indiana Jones, Einstein and Paul Tudor Jones, but all evidence points to his financial failure. Want proof?
http://viralstash.com/financials/jack-hershey-broke-and-in-debt-to-the-tax-man-3
I hope you see this before it gets deleted. That always seems to happen here as someone here is watching out for Uncle Jack.
You said either you (or maybe just your friend) is an engineer. Seriously? And you're perfectly happy accepting anecdotal evidence for something that could be analyzed via industry metrics and hard stats? Amazing.
I've already stated that its possible to make more than the range of a chart each day. (3X everyday? No, not humanly possible, in my opinion.)
Does Jack Trade 250 contracts? I don't know and I don't care. I personally doubt it but again, it doesn't matter.
I'll repeat again, Jack doesn't have to prove anything. It doesn't matter whether he is profitable or not. It doesn't matter whether he embellishes his accomplishments. What matters is if others can trade his method successfully and I know for a fact they do. There are those on this site that posts trades daily using his method. Most of you ignore that though. It is fact (not anecdotal) because I took the time to check it out in person. Whether you believe that or not is irrelevant. You will either check it out for yourself or spew your unsubstantiated hearsay as you continue to do.
I've already stated I've been in this industry over 30 years and have been trading for nearly 20. I'm not a newbie and actually know what I'm talking about. I don't make unsubstantiated comments like a lot of people do on these boards. If I don't know something, I simply say, "I don't know" and do what I can to find out the correct information.
Your so called "facts" are posted by some individual spewing the same hearsay you do.
Yes, there is a document on file at the Maricopa courthouse stating that in 2005 a Federal lien was granted against John T. Hershey for a property in Phoenix for the tax period ending in 2002. What you and your "Godzfist" poster fail to state is that if you dig further at a federal level, that lien was released.
Jack came in dead last in a trading contest 9 years ago. Big deal. I could trade circles around most of the population "live" but fall on my butt in a contest. If that doesn't make sense to you then that explains a lot.
Background investigation? What investigation? Saying it doesn't make it true. Your statements are proof of that.
Spyder showed up at a party in NYC wearing tennis shoes. He wasn't "poorly dressed". The host of the party has stated this on this very site. He wasn't told that there was a dress code to that particular establishment. He had attended an Expo all day. If you took the time to check out where Spyder lives or your misinformation you spew, you would know he is anything but poor but again it is too much trouble to be correct huh?
I'm not a fan of Jack's method but I know it works actually seeing people trade it. You and the other "Jack Smackers" need to get a life.
I've stayed out of the Hershey debates. It became too difficult to discern whether or not people were being serious or cynical. Jack has left several posts here that made me wonder about his sanity, but then this one, in '07, left no doubt that Jack needs the help of a mental health professional:
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showt...417458&highlight=books+camp+david#post1417458
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showt...417458&highlight=books+camp+david#post1417458
jack hershey
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 5506
03-29-07 09:21 PM
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Quote from Thunderdog:
Jack,
The quantity of words in your post is impressive. However, these fine words do not directly address the issues I have raised in my earlier post to Steve Tvardek which you have chosen to respond to. According to you, you make all kinds of money that I cannot even conceive. Your alleged rates of return are unrivaled by anyone participating in the financial markets, either in the present or at any point in history. And yet no one outside of internet forums knows anything about you, despite the fact that you have traded at this "expert level" since 1960. How very curious! The issue of "conventional orthodoxy" is a moot point here. When the financial press or biographers write about trading legends, it is principally because of the returns they have generated, quite apart from how they may have done so. (Particularly since most of these renowned traders do not share their methods with the general public.)
And so, like all of your other posts, this most recent one of yours is also beside the point. I do admire your consistency.
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You are incorrect on several counts.
It is not my job to set you straight on your mistaken conclusions.
When I have been interviewed on TV or in the press I have followed a protocol that has been honored. Before the cameras roll there is a clear understanding of what is off limits and what the consequences are of straying.
If I am having a beer in the press corps lounge at Camp David or having lunch at the Press Club in DC, it is just having a beer or lunch with guys. If I am keeping a weekly background interview by phone on a Thursday pm, it is all background. If I am on press call, again it is all background and precisely related to the subjects and NOT about me.
It is hard to imagine what you would be doing if you were making any money. People who make money do not think or behave as you do.
Do you know what people do with money?
Can you imagine what it is like to have 35 speaking engagements in one college semester? Do you know how many air miles that is? Can you imagine what it is like to be autographing books?
This trading stuff and making money is only a part of my life and I am an amateur. Up until now I haven't gotten around to even writing books about it.
Quote from hughb:
I've stayed out of the Hershey debates. It became too difficult to discern whether or not people were being serious or cynical. Jack has left several posts here that made me wonder about his sanity, but then this one, in '07, left no doubt that Jack needs the help of a mental health professional:
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showt...417458&highlight=books+camp+david#post1417458
No argument here.
I personally know a couple completely insane brilliant thinkers. I think it might be attributed to autism of some sort or another. One that lives in the Midwest calls me about once a week and each time we talk I find it more amazing how he functions day to day. I don't know what world he lives in but he is one happy deluded camper.