POLL...Best API for for IB order entry...

ElectricSavant · Dec 24, 2003

Scientist,

Ask Hoi if he would consider writing a "ButtonTrader" for Jtrader...

Michael B.

Quote from Scientist:

Hey Ditch, sounds like an interesting kind of problem. I'd say could be something like a "user error on ID10T interface"

Just kidding. The reality is, if you have any kind of problem, question or suggestion with the program, you can email them, and no matter if you're registered or not, you will generally get an answer / solution somewhere between immediately and less than an hour. No kidding. Try it yourself.

And chances are this counts like just about anytime. The amazing thing about this software is that the developer is the organizer, brainstormer, CEO and head programmer all-in-one (much like me when I was in business LOL) - Anyway, the advantage is that if you ask Hoi a question, he will probably already know what the problem is - or find it very very quickly - Because he's written most of that code himself. He knows all the routines, all the functions, and all the glitches.

And he's in the office just about 369 days a year, 12h a day or sth like that, programming and replying to emails. And he's still NEVER unfriendly! You really still get the classic Dutch customer treatment here, something that has died in the US of A a long time ago.

If IB had a customer service like that - Jesus, they'd own the entire industry. Unfortunately IB is hideously understaffed, full of quants and unfriendly, apparently always disturbed Borg-alike one-of-seven's, and their software has glitches here and there, which Hoi (ButtonTrader) spends a lot of time actually programming his way around - another challenge that I'm quite sure not many here would like to face.

Altogether - Would I hype this software? Sure I would! It's the most reliable and functional platform out there for the IB world, and that's what counts. If you don't like all the "features" - fine. Don't use them.

I think people on this board should stop wasting their time on politics and opinions, and instead:

-> Download platforms (NinjaTrader, ButtonTrader, FuturesTrader, TSim+, BracketTrader etc in no particular order)
--> Study & Test Platforms (read manuals!)
---> Test Reliability
----> Test Customer Service
-----> Make own conclusion
------> Subscribe to best platform

This is the best way to go about evaluating products. It eliminates the power of propaganda, opinion, bias, hype, spam, alterior motives or other agendas. If you want to be really sure, then sorry but this is the only way. There is no 'easy way'.

Chances are if you do this with everything else you use too, your life may change dramatically. All of a sudden you might find yourself running FreeBSD or Solaris instead of Windows, WinAmp instead of Win Media Player or, grief knows, MusicMatch, running Athlon instead of Intel, dead-quiet and performance-boosting VapoChill cooling instead of noisy fans, and MoZilla Firebird instead of Internet Explorer, just to name a few.

It's up to you. It's your life, not that of llama-ware companies. Be objective, proactive. Make the best out of it.
And gates forbid, don't be a llama.

Scientist.

Scientist · Dec 24, 2003

Quote from Ditch:

Hi Scientist,

Like i posted earlier Hoi did a great job solving the problem. I didn't expect that kind of service. The awkward thing is that it was due to a glitch in TWS.

LOL - I referred to both Hoi's service and TWS's glitches in the previous post... And here it is. Isnt' that funny?

Sorry, I didn't see your earlier post at the time. But I guess it's all butter now anyway.

Merry Christmas!

-S

Scientist · Dec 24, 2003

Quote from ElectricSavant:

Scientist,

Ask Hoi if he would consider writing a "ButtonTrader" for Jtrader...

Michael B.

Michael, LMAO!

That's one of the funniest things I've read in a while!

Shame though, JTrader has even more glitches than TWS - I doubt he'd even consider the job.

Merry X-Mas to you, too!

S

ElectricSavant · Dec 24, 2003

Why is it funny?...... he could increase his market share with a very good front-end that he has created.

Also J-trader does not have snapshot quotes which would cause his platform to function even better......it would be awesome.

I might even become as good a trader as you!

Michael B.

Quote from Scientist:

Michael, LMAO!

That's one of the funniest things I've read in a while!

Shame though, JTrader has even more glitches than TWS - I doubt he'd even consider the job.

S

Davo · Dec 24, 2003

SimTrader brought up a great point earlier about ButtonTraders tick/volume pressure analysis not being accurate because IB's data feed is not streaming tick by tick.

Two questions:

Can you use another data feed with BT in order to get true tick by tick data?

Why does BT promote this feature if it's not accurate?

Thanks & Merry Christmas

traderob · Dec 24, 2003

Davo,
the IB feed does not give the full volume but I think it gives a roughly correct ratio of what is present - so using the DOM on NT or BT can be useful. Corrections welcome?

Sometimes the ticks it doesnt give can be a problem though. Last month a sudden massive spike on the dax (during a very low volume time) took out my stop and yet was points away from what was recorded on IB . I had to do some investigation to find out what had happened.
==============================
SCIENTIST: ""If IB had a customer service like that - Jesus, they'd own the entire industry. Unfortunately IB is hideously understaffed, full of quants and unfriendly, apparently always disturbed Borg-alike one-of-seven's, """"

LOL, I know what you mean. The rest of the industry must really hope IB never get to find out that service matters.
====================

Scientist · Dec 25, 2003

Quote from Davo:
SimTrader brought up a great point earlier about ButtonTraders tick/volume pressure analysis not being accurate because IB's data feed is not streaming tick by tick.

Two questions:
Can you use another data feed with BT in order to get true tick by tick data?

Why does BT promote this feature if it's not accurate?

Davo, it doesn't require a constant no-packets-missed tick stream of data to get an idea about where the volume sits! AFAIK ButtonTrader uses an algorithm that averages the volume information coming in at each refresh - Doesn't that sound accurate enough? Works for me, and I can scalp the DTB/Eurex with over 100 RT/day looking at just IB's feed. Don't believe people who oink that IB's feed is inferior. Sure it's not the holy grail, but all those "experts" will always find something wrong about every feed, speed etc. A real trader doesn't give a hoot. Remember, not long ago most traders didn't even have EDAT man! If you traded futures >5yrs ago, chances are you were calling your orders into the broker by phone, who in turn had to call the pit broker etc etc. Did price move at the time? Sure it did! And if you wanted to scalp, you'd lease a seat in the pit.

Regarding "Can you use another data feed... true tick by tick data?" - Well I'm afraid you can't. As a matter of fact (I'm still talking Eurex only), the Eurex gives it's members snapshots of about 700ms intervals, while the Eurex non-member snapshots come in about 2,000ms (2s!) intervals. IB is obviously a clearing member, so they get 700ms snapshots, which they pass on to you - for free. However, I think no platform in the world can much improve on that, other than maybe a few ms in execution/submission through faster routines and routing, as is the case with X_Trader. Is it an advantage? Sure, if you're doing 2,000 trades/month, then a 100ms edge gives you another 200,000ms (3.3s) edge per month. For a scalper that's enough to make back the software fee. For a retail, low-volume trader however, none of this is an issue.

If you want a real good (!) piece of advice, the following is the best I can give you:
Learn the rules of whatever exchanges you're trading. If you know all the basic stats I've just given you, and a few more, then there's plenty of opportunities to exploit. This is crucial, particularly for day trading. Why? Look at the treatment of stop orders, for example:

GLOBEX (ES, NQ):
Stop-Limits: Native.
Stops : Simulated.
Market Orders: Simulated (!!!)
GTC : Native
GTD : Simulated

EUREX (DAX, ESTX50)
Stop-limits : Simulated.
Stops : Native!
Market order: Native!
GTC : Native
GTD : Native!

NOW what does that tell you? Which would you rather trade? Would you trade an exchange that accepts neither market nor stop orders? Well, all Globex traders do!!! I'm afraid many don't even realize it (at least they pseudo's don't). This is why I'm trading DAX now. The great thing is that above palaver about refresh times can all be heavily mitigated on the Eurex, simply because you can have your stop-(market) orders already rest on the exchange long in advance as well as have your market orders get there immediately on transmission. A major edge for scalping, as when GLOBEX moves very fast, market orders have to be consistently resubmitted, giving you potentially large slippage! Bad for entry? Well, potentially deadly for exit!

Think about it. Do your due diligence. Nothing's free.

Somebody else here said something like:
"IB's missing ticks can be a problem though. Last month a sudden massive spike on the DAX took out my stop and yet was points aways from what was recorded on IB..."

Well let me tell you this: You're making excuses. If your stop is taken out, what the hoot does it matter if IB records it or not? IB is just your broker. It's none of your broker's business if your trades succeed or not. It's your own business (see IB's disclosures on futures trading and those of the individual exchanges, I assume you've read them - If not, then well, do it now!). If your stop is taken, it's your fault, not your broker's. It's the market that moves, and if the market has gone that far against you - Well, too bad. The broker only 'submits' your order. The exchange clears it (or not) - And since you were trading DAX (Eurex), your stop was native anyway, therefore no longer any of IB's business! Point taken? Accept responsibility!

And there we are back to the issue I stressed here: Study and know the rules of your exchanges! Know them inside out, and then trade whichever exchange suits your trading style best. Some strategies beautifully exploit Globex's rule structure, others do the same with Eurex. However, they couldn't possibly be compatible.

You shouldn't be posting such a comment as this one if you're trading the DAX man! That's irresponsible! If you'd been remotely aware of the rules of Eurex, you couldn't have said this. Obviously, you had no idea about what you were doing, and putting huge money on the line! How long does it take to internalize exchange rules? 1/2 hour? Don't be a fool and just trade whatever moves without knowing the rules of the game. You can't do it in any other game without getting knocked at some point, either. Why in trading???

IMHO everybody who trades futures should be required to take a detailed "exam", like a driver's licence, as to verify that person's ability to actually know the rules and trade that exchange. From a competitive trader's POV I'd say "F*ck it", but from a humanitarian point of view I'd say "Do it!"

Scientist.

traderob · Dec 25, 2003

Quote from Scientist:

[
Somebody else here said something like:
"IB's missing ticks can be a problem though. Last month a sudden massive spike on the DAX took out my stop and yet was points aways from what was recorded on IB..."

Well let me tell you this: You're making excuses. If your stop is taken out, what the hoot does it matter if IB records it or not? IB is just your broker. It's none of your broker's business if your trades succeed or not. It's your own business (see IB's disclosures on futures trading and those of the individual exchanges, I assume you've read them - If not, then well, do it now!). If your stop is taken, it's your fault, not your broker's. It's the market that moves, and if the market has gone that far against you - Well, too bad. The broker only 'submits' your order. The exchange clears it (or not) - And since you were trading DAX (Eurex), your stop was native anyway, therefore no longer any of IB's business! Point taken? Accept responsibility!

You shouldn't be posting such a comment as this one if you're trading the DAX man! That's irresponsible! If you'd been remotely aware of the rules of Eurex, you couldn't have said this. Obviously, you had no idea about what you were doing, and putting huge money on the line! How long does it take to internalize exchange rules? 1/2 hour? Don't be a fool and just trade whatever moves without knowing the rules of the game. You can't do it in any other game without getting knocked at some point, either. Why in trading???

Scientist. [/B]

==========
Scientist,
I appreciate your advice. Because of the volatility of the DAX I only put stops (real wide) in case of internet disruption. But this was a real extreme spike. These things happen in trading, I am not blaming IB for getting stopped out.
I should have been more explicit in my post. You left off this sentence from my post which clarifes a bit:

*"""...and yet was points away from what was recorded on IB . I had to do some investigation to find out what had happened.""""

You see my point was not that IB had done something wrong but rather I had to find out what exactly had happened since there was no tick in that range recorded in my IB feed. It meant making a phone call to IB , waiting 5 minutes for them to answer and then a long wait while they confirmed what I already expected: i.e that it was trading at that level on the exchange even though I didn't see it on TWS. And so my main point was about the limitation of the TWS feed with regard to volume. As my post also pointed out that TWS gives a fair ratio of the ticks I hope this wasn't too extreme. please correct me further if you feel that it is warranted. Always willing to learn.

ElectricSavant · Dec 25, 2003

Scientist.....in volme analysis could you agree that flow and "velocity of flow" would be a valid detail to look at. Or perhaps scalping is just hit or miss and "generally" entries and exits can be "freeze framed" in time.

A program as great as Buttontrader could only be improved in the 2 areas I mentioned earlier. Now for the developer to close his mind to increasing market share by NOT "opening up" his program to other venues would only NOT be prudent, but limiting the reason why he developed it.

I would be curious to put both programs side by side (snap-shot version and "real Flow" version) to see when there are extreme prices in ES or NQ what prices are reported and averaged and then reported in buttontrader.

Scientist....sometimes being opinionated, condencending and quick to anger can only reveal that being close minded to all opportnities that present themselves can be for those reasons. The fact that you trade Eurex is a non-issue as others use Buttontrader for other markets that might benefit from "real-flow" reporting. Try to open up and mature a little.....consider what I say before discounting it. In your youth, which we all have experienced ourselves, it is sometimes easy to let pride control our thoughts. Try not to get full of yourself....

Michael B.

Scientist · Dec 27, 2003

Quote from ElectricSavant:

Scientist.....in volme analysis could you agree that flow and "velocity of flow" would be a valid detail to look at. Or perhaps scalping is just hit or miss and "generally" entries and exits can be "freeze framed" in time.

ElectroMan... The answer is yes and no. Why? Because it's very difficult do observe something as "velocity of volume flow" on the futures markets as such. They're too heavily arbed, jacked and confused in the short-term to be able to do this effectively. On top of that, most futures exchanges may not feature that kind of update "refresh" speed, anyway. On stocks, on the other hand, this would a completely different thing. First, you don't have (much) arbitrage going on, a lot more genuine commitment, much better (deeper) depth of market and actual "volume velocity" and such things.

So, to be quite honest, if you like 'war games', then Nasdaq Stocks are probably a better choice. This is my personal observation, from trading both Naz stocks and index futures - Anybody made a different observation - Please correct me and add your point!

As for "perhaps scalping is just hit or miss and 'generally' entries and exits can be 'freeze framed' in time..." - Well, in a way that's a pretty interesting way of putting it. And yes, probably quite appropriate even. The reality, Electric, is that you CAN'T predict the market anyway. Most people don't fully accept this, therefore lose. As the example says in "Trading in the Zone"; You can say the market will start going up here, or there's support right here, and I can call the broker and sell 100 contracts at the market, and you're f*cked. Not that I'd have the capital, but many others do. The point is there's no way you can predict. You can anticipate - to a certain extent, but you never know, and ideally, it is the best to assume every single trade being a loser - unless/until proven wrong. See "Phantom of the Pits"...

A program as great as Buttontrader could only be improved in the 2 areas I mentioned earlier. Now for the developer to close his mind to increasing market share by NOT "opening up" his program to other venues would only NOT be prudent, but limiting the reason why he developed it.

OK you are of course right. You could suggest it to him. Perhaps he's already planning on it. Who knows?

I would be curious to put both programs side by side (snap-shot version and "real Flow" version) to see when there are extreme prices in ES or NQ what prices are reported and averaged and then reported in buttontrader.

Sounds like an arduous task - But yeah, why not?

Scientist....sometimes being opinionated, condencending and quick to anger can only reveal that being close minded to all opportnities that present themselves can be for those reasons.

Alright, no anger here. Perhaps I came across as a bit snappy, because I kept getting PM's with the same questions over and over regarding these previous posts, so I had to reply - again. I wonder why people don't just ask their questions here? I keep getting PM's with the same trivial questions and other things. Sorry, how arrogant of me to call anything "trivial", but there is actually a search feature here as many things have been discussed before. And then, when I don't answer PM's immediately, I get follow-up PM's, saying "did you receive my email from 2 hours ago/yesterday/3 days ago?" Now apart from being a little snappish about that, I'm not quick to anger (LOL in fact I don't think you can anger me), I'm a sunny soul, and I'm not necessarily opinionated, as opinion is a deadly trait in the market. What may have come across as opinion, may in fact just have been facts, which I assembled and listed for your information and benefit, to zoom in on all the questions I've been asked via PM.

The fact that you trade Eurex is a non-issue as others use Buttontrader for other markets that might benefit from "real-flow" reporting. Try to open up and mature a little.....consider what I say before discounting it. In your youth, which we all have experienced ourselves, it is sometimes easy to let pride control our thoughts. Try not to get full of yourself....

Michael B.

As I detailed, a game where this kind of ultra-fast update would be very important, is scalping stocks. I've done it in ButtonTrader/IB, it seems well fast enough. However, it's coming up for almost 2 years now since I traded stocks very actively, so there may indeed be much better technology out there for that purpose. Such as Spectre L4; http://www.spectrenet.com/sl4/index.html

Sorry if I came across as discounting or proud, no offense was intended. The mere detail and thought I put into previous and this reply should have conveyed that I was indeed trying to be helpful, rather than of supersilious or malicious intent. And if I seem harsh talking to people, like that other guy, about things like exchange rules, it's probably because I've seen people lose some serious cash on some silly mistakes - either second hand or first. A certain amount of seriousness is required if you're trading futures. Otherwise, trade options. It's likely harder, but, given you ain't writing naked puts, at least you can't lose more than you're putting on the line.

Peace and a Happy New Year!
Scientist.