Polar Temps... warming... all guesswork

Right I understand futurecurrents. It would be great to have all of these points argued publicly by the deniers top scientists vs the affirmers once and for all. It would be the hottest ticket in town, pun intended. Then every time these debates came up, we could point to an actual video in an actual debate.

These debates happen regularly. Historically, the alarmists don't do very well in them and most of them have learned to avoid debating the issues. Here's some examples you can watch:

National Press Club Debate
Christopher Monckton v. Richard Denniss (2011)

Global Warming: A Fair and Balanced Debate
Heartland Institute Senior Fellow James Taylog debates Ray Bellamy,

Dr. Tim Ball & Elizabeth May MP - Climate Debate C-Fax Radio

Here's one reported on by the rather left-wing DailyKos.com. Of course they put as much spin on it as they can but the fact is that they have to report that, indeed, the students at Oxford voted against the Alarmist side:

Climate Skeptics Win Debate at Oxford
Daily Kos, May 26, 2010
Last week, members of the historic Oxford Union Society, "the world's premier debating society", held a debate on climate change policy, with skeptics carrying the day by a vote of 135 to 110.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/05/26/870212/-Climate-Skeptics-Win-Debate-at-Oxford#
 
Thanks, I have only watched the first one, and they mirror much of what happens here in the debates.

One place where I am able to comment is on the Lord's insistence that because the weather is chaotic (governed by non-linear equations) that it cannot be predicted. This is accurate because he is talking about weather, but inaccurate as the climate is not weather. One of the defining features of chaotic systems is that they may have attractors, often explained in a somewhat contradictory but perfectly formal science by saying " deterministic chaos" whic is what climate is all about. In fact Lorenz discovered them precisely in the context of climate. The most important part of this is stated thus:

"To sum up, the weather is chaotic because it can run free, climate is on a leash. Pull the leash hard enough and the climate responds."

http://www.skepticalscience.com/print.php?r=134

Another way of saying that is that weather is chaotic, meaning it can be anywhere on the the lorenz attractor. But climate __is__ the attractor, and that is what is in danger. The oceans are [one of the] the stabilizing effect on the weather that __gives__ us an attractor at mild mean global temperatures, otherwise life probably wouldn't exists on Earth.

It is no accident that when we look for life elsewhere in the universe,we look for worlds with water. To me and everyone else on the planet has noticed the violence of extreme storms. This could be seasonal or accidental. But it is a smoking gun that huge amounts of energy [see below where this energy comes from] has gone into the oceans as a result of CO2 heat trapping [on the order of the equivalent energy as the release of many billions of atomic bombs] and the oceans are dissipating it as the only physical law known to man that is indisputable demands, the second law of thermodynamics:

The law that entropy always increases holds, I think, the supreme position among the laws of Nature. If someone points out to you that your pet theory of the universe is in disagreement with Maxwell's equations — then so much the worse for Maxwell's equations. If it is found to be contradicted by observation — well, these experimentalists do bungle things sometimes. But if your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it but to collapse in deepest humiliation.

—Sir Arthur Stanley Eddington, The Nature of the Physical World (1927)

Where does the energy come from? From the sun in the form of high energy photons

[The energy of the Sun comes from nuclear fusion in which hydrogen atoms combine to form helium and in the process release a tremendous amount of energy.
Oddly, there is not enough pressure in the Sun to cause the fusion directly. If there were, most of the fusion would occur fairly rapidly as it does in more massive stars, instead of over the billions of years of our Sun's "main sequence".

The fusion in the Sun occurs because of a rare effect called "quantum tunneling". In this process, fusion takes several separate steps to form helium and release energy. During the process of making a helium atom, about 0.7% of the original hydrogen is converted from matter to energy.

In the Sun, even though quantum tunneling occurs extremely rarely to atoms, there are so many atoms that more than four million metric tons of hydrogen is converted to energy each second. That is the equivalent of exploding a billion hydrogen bombs a second Even at this rate, over the Sun's 4.57 billion year existence, only around 100 Earth-masses of matter have been converted into energy leaving about 332,900 Earth-masses remaining.

Quantum tunneling is so rare that far less energy is produced per kilogram of matter in the Sun than heat produced per kilogram in human bodies by chemical means. But the sun is extremely massive and the total energy production is immense.]
 
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All these things are estimates based on the other values. If you actually look at the heat emitted by the earth (as measured by satellite) and the heat arriving from the sun (as measured by satellite), you end up with errors that are much much larger than the quoted heat gain.

You only get the quoted heat gain (so many atom bombs) if you assume that the measurements of the heat gain of the oceans are correct. Unfortunately, the error bars on the ocean heat measurements are also huge. This happens because the temperature changes in the ocean are exceedingly small. Here is a recent Nature Climate Change article showing the details:

Deep-ocean contribution to sea level and energy budget not detectable over the past decade
Llovel, Willis, Landerer & Fukumori
Nature Climate Change 4, 1031-1035 (2014)
...
Finally, we combine our estimate of upper-ocean warming (above 2,000 m) with the ocean heat content change in the lower layer (below 2,000 m) to estimate the heat uptake by the entire ocean. We find a net ocean warming equivalent to a radiative imbalance of 0.64 ± 0.44 W m−2 since 2005. Here we have included the potential systematic uncertainties and assume that errors are uncorrelated between estimates of warming above and below 2,000 m depth. Our estimate of full-depth ocean warming is in good agreement with a recent estimate of Earth’s net energy imbalance of 0.50 ± 0.43 W m−2 for the period from 2001 through 2010 28. Nevertheless, our full-depth ocean heat content change and its contribution to global mean sea level relies on a strong hypothesis. We have assumed that each observing system is independent and that errors are uncorrelated over timescales longer than one month. If this assumption is invalid then the error bounds quoted in our analysis might be underestimated.
...

http://www.nature.com/nclimate/journal/v4/n11/full/nclimate2387.html

Now the figure "0.64 ± 0.44" shows that they can't distinguish between oceans absorbing 0.64-0.44 = 0.20 and 0.64+0.44 = 1.08 W/m^2. This is more than a factor of five between the top end of their estimate and the bottom end. But it gets worse. They made their error estimates assuming that the various measurements are independent. The universe is almost never that kind.

The more mature branches of physics have learned that signals need to be ignored until they reach about 5 or 6 sigma. For example, the elementary particle physicists didn't announce the Higgs boson until they were 5-sigma sure that their figures were correct. The reason they wait this long is because they have a long and embarrassing history of announcing incorrect results at the 2 or 3 sigma level.

The climate scientists haven't gone through that long history of bad results yet. Instead, they're in the midst of their first big screw-up, the "pause". The reason they were so sure there would be no pause is that they had hundreds of simulations by dozens of different groups and 99% of them showed strongly rising temperatures. They didn't realize that these estimates were not, in fact, independent. And so they concluded that there was going to be a huge temperature rise. When temperatures didn't rise for the first 5 years they ignored it, then they denied it for another 5 years, and now they're trying to wish it away and no two groups seem to agree on the same excuse, LOL.

If you come back and look at how climate science does business 20 years from now they'll undoubtedly be a mature science and will keep quiet until they are 99% sure of their results *and* are sure that they are independent (and so that their statistics are real). Right now they repeatedly make statistical errors in the direction of more certainty than actually exists.

Here are some links on the 5-sigma "gold standard" that is used in elementary particle physics, and why it's used:

5 Sigma What's That?
Evelyn Lamb, Scientific American Blog, July 17, 2012
Chances are, you heard this month about the discovery of a tiny fundamental physics particle that may be the long-sought Higgs boson. The phrase five-sigma was tossed about by scientists to describe the strength of the discovery. So, what does five-sigma mean?

In short, five-sigma corresponds to a p-value, or probability, of 3x10-7, or about 1 in 3.5 million. This is not the probability that the Higgs boson does or doesn't exist; rather, it is the probability that if the particle does not exist, the data that CERN scientists collected in Geneva, Switzerland, would be at least as extreme as what they observed.

High-energy physics requires even lower p-values to announce evidence or discoveries. The threshold for "evidence of a particle," corresponds to p=0.003, and the standard for "discovery" is p=0.0000003.

The reason for such stringent standards is that several three-sigma events have later turned out to be statistical anomalies, and physicists are loath to declare discovery and later find out that the result was just a blip.
...

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/five-sigmawhats-that/

Shifting Standards Experiments in Particle Physics in the Twentieth Century
Allan Franklin, University of Pittsburgh Press (2013)
(Prologue pp xiv-xv)
According to the story, which received wide circulation within the high-energy physics community, Rosenfeld pointed out that given the large number of graphs that were plotted each year by experimenters, one would expect to see a significant number of three standard-deviation effects even if the data were distributed randomly and no particles or resonances were present. Rosenfeld (1975) discussed the issue in print. In discussing the existence of the kappa(725), a K Pi resonance that had been reported five times, but subsequently disappeared, Rosenfeld stated the following: "We compiled and histogrammed (by computer) 60,000 new K Pi events, and found no substantial further evidence and went on to ask how frequently such striking statistical fluctuations should be expected at some given mass in the K Pi system. (At the time about 2 million bubble chamber events were being measured annually, and about a thousand physicists were hunting through 10,000 to 20,000 mass histograms each year, in search of striking features, real or imagined,) We concluded that the five kappa claims were just about what we should expect" (564-65).
http://www.amazon.com/Shifting-Standards-Experiments-Particle-Twentieth/dp/0822944308/


But piezoe, we have gone through this already. Deep ocean is not the same as the ocean. The following chart shows the ocean that is not considered deep ocean. The error bars are not large because of the small temp change since it is not temperature alone that determines heat content. Nice attempt at deception.... liar.

heat_content2000m.png




You are relying on everyone to be have as poor as reading comprehension as you do. In fact, being stupid is a requirement for denying AGW.

Again, I'm not even going to bother to read the rest of your crap since it's obvious that you either stupid or intentionally lying.
 
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These debates happen regularly. Historically, the alarmists don't do very well in them and most of them have learned to avoid debating the issues. Here's some examples you can watch:

National Press Club Debate
Christopher Monckton v. Richard Denniss (2011)

Global Warming: A Fair and Balanced Debate
Heartland Institute Senior Fellow James Taylog debates Ray Bellamy,

Dr. Tim Ball & Elizabeth May MP - Climate Debate C-Fax Radio

Here's one reported on by the rather left-wing DailyKos.com. Of course they put as much spin on it as they can but the fact is that they have to report that, indeed, the students at Oxford voted against the Alarmist side:

Climate Skeptics Win Debate at Oxford
Daily Kos, May 26, 2010
Last week, members of the historic Oxford Union Society, "the world's premier debating society", held a debate on climate change policy, with skeptics carrying the day by a vote of 135 to 110.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/05/26/870212/-Climate-Skeptics-Win-Debate-at-Oxford#


Nice who's who of frauds and fools.


Again I ask. Are you for real? Do you work for an interested party? This is complete and total horsehit. You are either a moron or a liar. Or both.
 
"WANT to fix the climate? Then we need a global investment of £15 billion a year – the same amount used to put a man on the moon...the biggest technological obstacle to widespread adoption of solar and wind energy: how to store and distribute it so it can be used as and when needed."

http://www.newscientist.com/article...-budget-to-boost-renewables.html#.VX3kmK0Viko

Tesla batteries and global warming may be intertwined soon...

http://www.freecleansolar.com/Tesla...E0hjhQgDwb6NPzZz2NlznTYexAEh5Rf77kaAqN28P8HAQ

TSLA stock will go exponential if they are able to perfect their batteries, and governments begin to make these investments

http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/tsla
 
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The problem is that as these no carbon energy sources become more viable and used more, the price of fossil fuels decreases making it hard for them to compete. There needs to be a slowly ramping carbon tax - that can returned to the taxpayers. As it is now, the true cost of their use is not included in their price. Their current unpaid cost is future climate disruption.

But it is encouraging how these are advancing. But we should not forget nuclear. It can be done right and it supplies large amounts of energy that can be used to charge cars etc.
 
Here is the debate. How much further up will this go along with the temps before we act?

1106.Mauna_Loa_Carbon_Dioxide_Apr2013.svg.600.jpg
You should overlay that against the increase in seismic and volcanic activity at Mauna Loa for the same time period, no small wonder there's an increase.

Why anyone would use CO2 data from the area of an active Volcano?
 
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You should overlay that against the increase in seismic and volcanic activity at Mauna Loa for the same time period, no small wonder there's an increase.

Why anyone would use CO2 data from the area of an active Volcano?


You must be joking. ha ha, good one.

Wait, you ARE joking right?
 
So this is the "debate" that TooOld puts forth as an example of "skeptics winning"

I quote from the article...

the debate was a bit "stacked" given that it was sponsored by theScience and Public Policy Institute, an organization whose mission statement includes the following:

The Institute urges critical appraisal of legislative "climate fixes" for their social, political, and economic and security costs, along with their relative utility or futility. Proposals demanding prodigious economic or political sacrifices for the sake of negligible climatic benefits should be rejected in favor of policies to address graver, more immediate concerns about which something constructive can actually be done.



In addition the question to be debated was not phrased in terms of, "is man-made climate change real?", but in relative terms:

"That this House would put economic growth before combating climate change"



So, basically more deception and lies from TooOld
 
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