Poker and the Beginning Trader

[iceman1]

Quote from traderNik:

Hey Ice

You didn't mention where you were, positionally speaking, where he was, what your stack looked like vs. his, and whether this was a ring game or a tourney. It would really be helpful to have all this information, which is IMO necessary for an analysis of your play on this hand. When you bet pot was it after a check - was he ahead of you? What was the preflop action?

I raised 3x BB on A/K in late/he was in front of me/middle/ring game/chips about even

I raised 2x pot on turn (8d) and he re-raised all his chips. Having nut flush draw with high pair/kicker, I called. If I had more chips maybe I'd have come over top and lost more, or perhaps he would have folded 2p but board was not scary enough imho. A rag came on 5th.

For me the issue is finding the line between wanting to cut the field/reduce players seeing flops in smaller games vs. wanting to get paid for a strong pre-flop made or drawing hand that is improved on the flop. I have also recently had a set of Qs cracked in a similar situation when aces paired on board giving me a boat but giving another player trip aces and a 6 on the river filled him. My view on that was had I cut him by pushing it all in earlier, a smaller pot would have been mine rather than losing a large one by trying to maximize any assumed payoff. This allowed him to see 4th (Ace) gving him a made hand with now trip aces, and w/6 kicker a 3-out draw. I doubt any bet would have got him out at that point.

 

[illiquid]

After raising flop, he check-raised all-in on the turn, so you probably must assume he has you beat at the moment -- reads aside, isn't it just a matter of how much you need to call vs the pot to catch that fourth spade? I'd put him on a set of 9's or QJs based on his pf call, and the possibility that he flopped a flush takes away 2 more outs for you. Just my noob take.

 

[FanOfFridays]

Quote from iceman1:



I raised 2x pot on turn (8d) and he re-raised all his chips. Having nut flush draw with high pair/kicker, I called.

I know you aren't looking for a critique of your play on this particular hand, so I'll just say that when he comes over the top of you, a lot depends on what if anything you know about the guy, IMO. Others here may correct me but if you know nothing about him, I think you have to assume he has a set.

For me the issue is finding the line between wanting to cut the field/reduce players seeing flops in smaller games vs. wanting to get paid for a strong pre-flop made or drawing hand that is improved on the flop.

When you said you 'semi-slow played', I assume you mean that he checked the flop and you checked behind him. I would say that this is where you want to start claiming your pot. You have played correctly up until here - now you have your flop. Of course he will call you but that isn't the point - it's THAT call that you are looking to get out of the guy.

The question of slow playing at these lower limit tables is a tough one. I have been burned doing it many times.

You probably already know this, but

www.twoplustwo.com

is the place to take this question - they will have a good take on it and they appreciate theoretical questions there, as long as they don't look like bad beat posts, which they really hate (I know, I have tried it).

Good luck.

 

[illiquid]

Just some additional thoughts if you don't mind, trying to learn the game and seeing if I'm actually making any progress, shoot me down where needed please.

Quote from iceman1:

This seems to happen so much online where a two-out draw defeats a solid bet, and a solid drawing and/or made hand with great odds/ many outs to improve more.

I do believe failing to get paid enough on your strong hands is a big factor, for me the #1 one reason for not being up even more. But this kind of hand dampers one's aggressiveness at times, and I can't see compensating by betting more aggressively just to cut the field as this also has the by-product of reducing payment/value on strong hands.

I think the way you're supposed to think of it is that you must thin the field with AK pf and TPTK on the flop, or you'll just be inviting even more '2-out suckouts' in the future, and be happy winning relatively small pots. In limit, TPTK every hand will take you to the promised land; in NL it will eventually get you broke if you can't let it go at some point. But in any case, if that guy is gonna call your raise pf with A8 in that position (assuming you haven't played too loose-aggressive up to that point), you just have to reload and hope he doesn't leave the table.

Does the above make any sense guys? Or is it just low-limit stuff that doesn't hold in bigger games?

 

[iceman1]

thanks for all the feedback/analysis. Unfortunately I didn't spend enough time looking this hand over i.e. post-mortemm as occurred to me when you asked for position etc. So one thing I just "learned" is (obviously) the value of going over certain key hands in more detail to discover ways to improve play, not unlike trading review.

Thanks for the link to twoplustwo.com.

 

[iceman1]

Quote from illiquid:

Just some additional thoughts if you don't mind, trying to learn the game and seeing if I'm actually making any progress, shoot me down where needed please.


I think the way you're supposed to think of it is that you must thin the field with AK pf and TPTK on the flop, or you'll just be inviting even more '2-out suckouts' in the future, and be happy winning relatively small pots. In limit, TPTK every hand will take you to the promised land; in NL it will eventually get you broke if you can't let it go at some point. But in any case, if that guy is gonna call your raise pf with A8 in that position (assuming you haven't played too loose-aggressive up to that point), you just have to reload and hope he doesn't leave the table.

Does the above make any sense guys? Or is it just low-limit stuff that doesn't hold in bigger games?

sometimes on certain tables what you say is right, and this guy had a big night... taking down the largest pot of the night after I left the table and was observing... in fact for a smaller table it was one of the biggest pots you'll see in a while (400bb) This after he had a drawdown of almost all he had taken off me in that one pot, by chasing like he did on the A/8u. He later lucked out and filled an insde on 4th and got two guys betting all their chips on TP (Q) w/different kickers, he being in mp1 (3 players).

 

[FanOfFridays]

Quote from iceman1:

sometimes on certain tables what you say is right, and this guy had a big night... taking down the largest pot of the night after I left the table and was observing... in fact for a smaller table it was one of the biggest pots you'll see in a while (400bb) This after he had a drawdown of almost all he had taken off me in that one pot, by chasing like he did on the A/8u. He later lucked out and filled an insde on 4th and got two guys betting all their chips on TP (Q) w/different kickers, he being in mp1 (3 players).

hey illiquid

No, what you say makes sense to me. You definitely have to be able to get away from these hands in NL. That is the one thing that I am just now beginning to truly understand. That is the difference in NL, especially at the lower limits.

ice, given your description of this guy, there isn't much more to say - he couldn't beat you over time if his life depended on it. You just have to think of these calls as being the ones you dream about, the ones you play for.

And btw... in my own play, I have found that after I started to consciously force myself to say my position out loud (online anyway), my play improved a lot.

 

[PetaDollar]

You gotta bet that flop in NL, period. 1/4 to 1/2 the pot. Not only for this hand, but also to set up future hands. Plus, you have to learn where you stand in the current hand. Since you check the flop and he makes a big bet on the turn, you have no idea if it's a bluff or what. However if he just calls a flop bet and then makes a big bet on the turn you know either he cool-called after a big flop for him or that he just hit something on the turn, and that your are beat in either case. It then becomes a question of pot-odds. You do not slow-play TPTK ever, even with a draw to the nuts. At least I don't. You slow play a monster flop that would appear scary to other players, in order to let them draw 2nd best hand. E.g. Kc Ks 9s when you hold KK. Check to the river and let an ace or spade come down, someone hits a straight or trips, etc. Then your 1/4 to 1/2 pot bet on the river will look like a bluff.

 

[FanOfFridays]

Quote from peterfigliozzi:

You gotta bet that flop in NL, period. 1/4 to 1/2 the pot. Not only for this hand, but also to set up future hands. Plus, you have to learn where you stand in the current hand. Since you check the flop and he makes a big bet on the turn, you have no idea if it's a bluff or what. However if he just calls a flop bet and then makes a big bet on the turn you know either he cool-called after a big flop for him or that he just hit something on the turn, and that your are beat in either case. It then becomes a question of pot-odds. You do not slow-play TPTK ever, even with a draw to the nuts. At least I don't. You slow play a monster flop that would appear scary to other players, in order to let them draw 2nd best hand. E.g. Kc Ks 9s when you hold KK. Check to the river and let an ace or spade come down, someone hits a straight or trips, etc. Then your 1/4 to 1/2 pot bet on the river will look like a bluff.

Yes, I agree 100%. NL is a game of information and you need the information Peter mentioned - that is, his response to a flop bet.

 

[PetaDollar]

Also it would be nice for AQos to call you all the way to the river, showdown, and lose. Then next time you raise and bet half the pot on the flop, you can fold 'em with nothing.