Research is fun and challenging: Going to undergraduate and then graduate school at some top schools taught me that there is nothing magical about a PhD: it is just a piece of paper. I wish I could say that I was impressed with all the famous prof's that I worked with: I was not. A few were brilliant and good people. Many were not. IMHO where you went to school makes little difference with respect to your mastery of a particular area of study / application. The best lesson I learned was to not be intimidated by anyone: learn what you can from them and then chart your own path ....
PhD without the guts
- Thread starter ADX_trader
- Start date
Research is fun and challenging: Going to undergraduate and then graduate school at some top schools taught me that there is nothing magical about a PhD: it is just a piece of paper. I wish I could say that I was impressed with all the famous prof's that I worked with: I was not. A few were brilliant and good people. Many were not. IMHO where you went to school makes little difference with respect to your mastery of a particular area of study / application. The best lesson I learned was to not be intimidated by anyone: learn what you can from them and then chart your own path ....
which class would i be taking at harvard? maybe - FALSE B/O 101? i wonder if i had gone to school with those folks if my perspective would have been altered? probably. if you read "liars poker" i think you'll see that trading is not an academic exercise.
my point was that this is not an intelligence test. before i continue, let me tell you i have a strong dislike for most medical doctors. i have seen many in my lifetime for reasons that are immaterial to this thread. i was actually being treaded by a doctor in new york - i read a book that he wrote that made absolute sense to me - so i contacted him and he treated me for years (no covered by insurance). BTW, the best doctors that i have seen dont allow medical insurance discounts and dont screw with the paper work - that's all the patients stuff to dea lwith.
doctors have excelled in school by being right, or being told they are right, or by giving the conditioned response to a test. they get the "right" or generally accepted answer and are rewarded. many doctors that i have met are very well-educated, but seem to lack perspective and common sense. they also have difficulty thinking "outside the box." i worked with a commercial development company and we considered having doctors involved, but they thought they were smarter than everyone, when in fact they were missing the "critical path." actually, they were kinda stupid in a perverse, conceited way. i could see them trying to trade and fighting the realization that the market was not doing what "it was supposed to do" which is really what they thought it would do - and they are almost always right... they had to be right, the market was wrong! how could it do that, if they just wiat they will be proven correct. WRONG!
they are a part of the herd - there is comfort in the herd - particularly near the front. the cream of the crop in academia are rewarded by being right and they are told that they are smart. they beleive they are smart or smarter than everyone else. but, no one is smarter than the market - its the smartest MF'er there is! for most or many, it is about being right. in trading it is not just about being right, in fact admitting and error and taking a loss is just or more important than being right. the "smarty pants" mind-set is a negative. conversely, the guys in "the predictors" are so friggin smart it is scary. i just was not blessed with anything like their intellect. friggin "brainyacks." i couldnt even qualify to carry their bags. freaks!!!
so, yes perhaps a harvard eduction would have improved my trading or taken me on a different path. but, maybe the years of conditioning and of getting the "right" or generally accepted answer, which is in a way "following the herd," would have been very detrimental to my progress as a trader. maybe i too would have developed the opinion that TA is "voodoo."
let's be clear... i am not stupid. i graduated with honors and i studied my senior year at waseda diagaku in tokyo, japan - i paid my way through school - no help from mommy and there was no daddy. i have earned the top professional designation in my field. while that has provided a foundation, the early money that i made investing in real estate was more a result of "just knowing" that something was a good deal rather than an academic exercise. later, experience helped! and to be brutally honest, investing in primarily in southern california real estate since 1985 hasnt hurt either.
ive been through a hell of a lot in my life - not exactly the life of an ivy leaguer. LOL! i am mentally tough and determined and that cant be taught at harvard or any other university. so the question you pose is a mental circle-jerk, i didnt go to harvard so we'll never know. i hope my children will though.
doctors have excelled in school by being right, or being told they are right, or by giving the conditioned response to a test. they get the "right" or generally accepted answer and are rewarded.
The reason why the brilliant or educated don't often succeed is indeed because they are conditioned for the "right" answer. It's also because they talk in the language of theory or ideology, which doesn't often doesn't play out in the real world.
There's also the angle that when you feel you know everything on a subject, well, because you've learned it and have become an "expert" that you can't be wrong.
I like the way Schwager talks of his own foibles in that area. He felt confident of his ability to be an analyst. And in being one, he noticed patterns he thought he could exploit. And he did for a while. (Hey, I've had 8 winners out of my last 10.)
The trouble is in keeping it going. An academic or a layman who's been conditioned for certain interpretations of a market or a classic work of literature hasn't learned as much as someone who arrived at an interpretation of their own due to their unique process of discovery.
Too many educated folks end up thinking that regurgitating the accepted interpretation passes as understanding. It doesn't. And that's why many academics fail.
André
The reason why the brilliant or educated don't often succeed is indeed because they are conditioned for the "right" answer. It's also because they talk in the language of theory or ideology, which doesn't often doesn't play out in the real world.
There's also the angle that when you feel you know everything on a subject, well, because you've learned it and have become an "expert" that you can't be wrong.
I like the way Schwager talks of his own foibles in that area. He felt confident of his ability to be an analyst. And in being one, he noticed patterns he thought he could exploit. And he did for a while. (Hey, I've had 8 winners out of my last 10.)
The trouble is in keeping it going. An academic or a layman who's been conditioned for certain interpretations of a market or a classic work of literature hasn't learned as much as someone who arrived at an interpretation of their own due to their unique process of discovery.
Too many educated folks end up thinking that regurgitating the accepted interpretation passes as understanding. It doesn't. And that's why many academics fail.
André
Quote from ADX_trader:
Is there any way to train a person to have more guts?
I lived with many fears for most of my life, then I got a program call "Feel the fear and do it anyway".
After about 9 to 12 months working the program I noticed I could "feel the fear and do it anyway", then over time I found I just "did it" and no longer felt the fear.
I have since given the program to friends, who have passed it along, so I am not certain, but believe the author was Dr. Susan Jeffers (or Jeffries?).
So, my personal experience say, YES, people who want to make a change can!
or at least be aware of the fear. my mom lived in 3-D her whole life - DEATH, DOOM and DESTRUCTION - around every corner. depression era childhood could have had something to do with it, along with the fact that she was raising two kids w/o support of any kind... took her 23 years to pay off a $19,000 house, but she was proud that she paid the sucker off.
i realize i was raised in that manner and i fight it when a position is going up, i have to fight the urge to grab it before it disappears... when i had a bad stretch trading, i felt the fear even stronger - it never really went away. i try to raise my children with thoughts of abundance rather than fear and deprivation.
p.s. - since ive gotten off on this tangent. i can really stomach apricots or white peaches. we had a tree of each in the backyard. God i ate a ton of both growing up. i also dont eat cucumber of tomato sandwiches much anymore either. hey, WHERE'S THE BEEF! so, i might get that program - it has to be cheaper than the 6 years of therapy with the shrink (helped though).
GD2KNO, your comment kind of reminds me how women in self defense classes often first have to simply learn how to yell NO! (before they can in turn be aggressive enough in how they carry themselves) to repel aggression.
Saying no is sometimes so hard to do for some women. I've often heard how women feel that they've been conditioned to be "people pleasers"... an AA term. I think there's some general truth in that line of thought. Though I bristle that it's the sole product of a "male dominated world"-another topic.
Feeling fear first or ignoring it, is also highly conditioned. How past wealth or poverty affects one (or how one takes risks) is certainly worth keeping in mind, esp. in trading.
André
Saying no is sometimes so hard to do for some women. I've often heard how women feel that they've been conditioned to be "people pleasers"... an AA term. I think there's some general truth in that line of thought. Though I bristle that it's the sole product of a "male dominated world"-another topic.
Feeling fear first or ignoring it, is also highly conditioned. How past wealth or poverty affects one (or how one takes risks) is certainly worth keeping in mind, esp. in trading.
André
I totally disagree.
It's just like saying they cannot understand their shortcomings. They can and if they want to, they can become good traders. Intelligence can only help in trading, but it is not enough to be a good trader. Other things are more important. That's why this thread is simply silly. Ph.D. or not, you still need to master trading. Ph.D. does not give you any advantage in trading, it's as simple as that. However saying that it is some sort of obstruction is also ridiculous. It simply has nothing to do with trading the same way as having a pair of blue eyes has nothing to do with how well you can trade.
Trading can be taught and can be mastered. I see no reason why a Ph.D. could not master it if he or she wanted to. But most do not want to just as most other people prefer doing things other than trading.
I have been reading this thread and god do I have a very similar story. And the tomato sandwiches god!! I had tomatoes coming out my ears mang!!!!
I like the 3-D thing mine is the same way. I think that the reason for this is that they do not know what is around each corner that they turn and if they have low expectations they can always fall back on this for some comfort. She definitely doesn't expect much to come ever.
Good to hear that you pulled your family out of this, it says a lot about what you are made of. Not to many people have that diverse of a background.
Thanks for letting me know I am not the only one!
Comp
I like the 3-D thing mine is the same way. I think that the reason for this is that they do not know what is around each corner that they turn and if they have low expectations they can always fall back on this for some comfort. She definitely doesn't expect much to come ever.
Good to hear that you pulled your family out of this, it says a lot about what you are made of. Not to many people have that diverse of a background.
Thanks for letting me know I am not the only one!
Comp
Quote from QQQBALL:
or at least be aware of the fear. my mom lived in 3-D her whole life - DEATH, DOOM and DESTRUCTION - around every corner. depression era childhood could have had something to do with it, along with the fact that she was raising two kids w/o support of any kind... took her 23 years to pay off a $19,000 house, but she was proud that she paid the sucker off.
i realize i was raised in that manner and i fight it when a position is going up, i have to fight the urge to grab it before it disappears... when i had a bad stretch trading, i felt the fear even stronger - it never really went away. i try to raise my children with thoughts of abundance rather than fear and deprivation.
p.s. - since ive gotten off on this tangent. i can really stomach apricots or white peaches. we had a tree of each in the backyard. God i ate a ton of both growing up. i also don't eat cucumber of tomato sandwiches much anymore either. hey, WHERE'S THE BEEF! so, i might get that program - it has to be cheaper than the 6 years of therapy with the shrink (helped though).