Patak Trading

Quote from Maverick74:

Hell, deposit 100k with IB and get portfolio margin and insurance.
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Don't know if you saw my last post regarding Portfolio Margin. We started a family retail venture with GS, funded it, and were expecting 6 to one margin, no big deal.

But we learned about Risk Margin, whole new and additional parameter. We have been back to 2 or 3 to one.

So I called my buddies at MBTrading, and they weren't sure about the 6 to one PM either. They had their Compliance and Risk people check it out, same deal. No assurance of 6 to one.

Then I spoke with IB, same deal. Then I checked with own traders who have PM accounts at IB, same deal.

So, although PM retail may work for some, don't just expect 6 to one.

If anyone can find a solid firm, looking for business, let me know. Until then, we'll stick with GS for our retail venture.

FWIW,

Don
 
Quote from Don Bright:

Don't know if you saw my last post regarding Portfolio Margin. We started a family retail venture with GS, funded it, and were expecting 6 to one margin, no big deal.

But we learned about Risk Margin, whole new and additional parameter. We have been back to 2 or 3 to one.

So I called my buddies at MBTrading, and they weren't sure about the 6 to one PM either. They had their Compliance and Risk people check it out, same deal. No assurance of 6 to one.

Then I spoke with IB, same deal. Then I checked with own traders who have PM accounts at IB, same deal.

So, although PM retail may work for some, don't just expect 6 to one.

If anyone can find a solid firm, looking for business, let me know. Until then, we'll stick with GS for our retail venture.

FWIW,

Don
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Don,

Victor Securities will give you 6 to 1. Give them a call.
 
I think it's a great program for practicing. Also, I think they've worked on the criteria lately to reflect more the essence of what is important.

A couple of nitpicks:

- You don't exactly start making money the day you go live. The way I read it is that you can start taking profits out that are above the first $10k you make for them.

- I know of at least 2 guys who successfully completed a combine while following _all_ the rules and were still asked to do more trading before being taken live. One of them went ahead and proved more to them and went live. The other I think felt a little jerked around and had his own money anyway (was using the program for practice).

- There is no sense that once you are consistently making money live that they will open up to real significant size. My guess is that they keep that $10k you made them before they ever started paying out to you and maintain a healthy buffer of profit regardless of the size you trade. Essentially you are trading with your own profits..
 
You are correct about trading your own profits. But if you know another place that will back you with $100k, and they eat the losses, let me know.
I would be most interested.
 
Quote from caementarius:

I think it's a great program for practicing. Also, I think they've worked on the criteria lately to reflect more the essence of what is important.

A couple of nitpicks:

- You don't exactly start making money the day you go live. The way I read it is that you can start taking profits out that are above the first $10k you make for them.

- I know of at least 2 guys who successfully completed a combine while following _all_ the rules and were still asked to do more trading before being taken live. One of them went ahead and proved more to them and went live. The other I think felt a little jerked around and had his own money anyway (was using the program for practice).

- There is no sense that once you are consistently making money live that they will open up to real significant size. My guess is that they keep that $10k you made them before they ever started paying out to you and maintain a healthy buffer of profit regardless of the size you trade. Essentially you are trading with your own profits..
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A little off on the details so let me correct. The 10k buffer is only for 100k and 150k accounts. It's a 5k buffer for 50k accounts. I see no issue with that. If they didn't have that buffer, they would be cutting your risk limits on every down day which would be a pain in the ass. Once you have 5k in profits, you can take your p&l out every week if you like.

BTW, this is how almost every single true prop firm works. Almost all of them make you keep capital in the firm called deferred compensation for anywhere from 2 to 3 years locked up. Basically "trading your own p&l" as you like to call it. This is how the industry works. I have a friend that walked away from Ronin leaving 300k in deferred capital behind to get out of their deal. He regretted it later but that's the deal.

As far as size, they are pretty transparent on that as well. You get the same parameters when you go live as you had in the combine. So if you do the 150k combine, you are going to be swinging a pretty big line (15 crude, 15 bonds, 15 copper, etc.).
 
Quote from seadog:

You are correct about trading your own profits. But if you know another place that will back you with $100k, and they eat the losses, let me know.
I would be most interested.
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You will realize that the "account size" is arbitrary and is just a number. $100k, $500k, $1M.. what matters is how much loss they will take -- which I think is a couple thousand bucks at best before you are back in a combine.

As long as 20 folks pay for a combine and don't pass for every trader they bring live (it is probably more like 100, maybe more) then they will break even without even considering the traders who do make it, make them $10k, and continue making them money.
 
Quote from Maverick74:

A little off on the details so let me correct. The 10k buffer is only for 100k and 150k accounts. It's a 5k buffer for 50k accounts. I see no issue with that. If they didn't have that buffer, they would be cutting your risk limits on every down day which would be a pain in the ass. Once you have 5k in profits, you can take your p&l out every week if you like.

BTW, this is how almost every single true prop firm works. Almost all of them make you keep capital in the firm called deferred compensation for anywhere from 2 to 3 years locked up. Basically "trading your own p&l" as you like to call it. This is how the industry works. I have a friend that walked away from Ronin leaving 300k in deferred capital behind to get out of their deal. He regretted it later but that's the deal.

As far as size, they are pretty transparent on that as well. You get the same parameters when you go live as you had in the combine. So if you do the 150k combine, you are going to be swinging a pretty big line (15 crude, 15 bonds, 15 copper, etc.).
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Hah you've GOT to be kidding me. As far as I can tell, the 5k or 10k is 'deferred' for a million years. You get the same parameters live except they cut you off when you lose a little money - yeah just a wee bit 'o difference there my friend. :D
 
Quote from caementarius:

You will realize that the "account size" is arbitrary and is just a number. $100k, $500k, $1M.. what matters is how much loss they will take -- which I think is a couple thousand bucks at best before you are back in a combine.

As long as 20 folks pay for a combine and don't pass for every trader they bring live (it is probably more like 100, maybe more) then they will break even without even considering the traders who do make it, make them $10k, and continue making them money.
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All the risk limits and numbers are posted. I honestly don't know what your complaint is. You should hear the shit that happens at big prop firms where guys make 500k in p&l and expect to get 200k in a bonus and end up with 25k and a gift certificate to the jelly of the monthly club. What exactly do you want these guys to do for you? You are a strange guy probably living out of state who they will never ever meet in person and they are going to give you a line to swing. What else do you want and what is the alternative?
 
Quote from caementarius:

Hah you've GOT to be kidding me. As far as I can tell, the 5k or 10k is 'deferred' for a million years. You get the same parameters live except they cut you off when you lose a little money - yeah just a wee bit 'o difference there my friend. :D
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None of this is based on facts. They currently have over 40 funded and live traders at this moment. Let me guess, they are all raking it in? Come on dude. Either you believe they are all making money, which I doubt, or some or most of them are trading in a debit at the moment. The math can't work both ways.
 
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