Paris was just a test

[jem]

Piezoe looking at the bright side trusting, politicians and believing their incompetence is because of incompetence. I admire that.

One other scenario. Perhaps George Soros through George Bush and their banker and politician friends really are gathering in the world's resources... from food and water to businesses and women.

Western govts will continue to be purposely less than fully effective.... they will import terrorists into each western country. They will use the terrorism these refujihadists create as an excuse to set of fascist controls run by cronies all over the west. Then when full crony control of the west is implemented... they will do a full out assault on muslims in every country around the world...

The end game being one crony run govt or govt around the world with technology deployed by Accenture or IBM utilizing RFID cards for entry, exit and commerce.

ISIS does not need to do much of anything until complacency creeps back in again. With these few attacks they can leverage a few thousand, or hundred thousand, dollar equivalents into a few billion or trillion dollars of damage to the Western economies. This is what's at the bottom of organized terrorist attacks. There will always be a few wildcatters trying to blow up their shoes, etc., but the organized attacks will be relatively few and will subside, for awhile at least. There need be just enough attacks to keep us expending resources and keep us permanently on an expensive, economically destructive war footing. The people at the top of these terrorists organizations are, typically, educated and very smart, as well as deranged of course. They understand well how to leverage their resources and what weapons are most effective against the Western powers.

This kind of thing can go on for a very long time. Conventional warfare against specific targets is both costly and ineffective against extreme ideologies. The West, so far, has not found a way to kill these radical ideologies using either selective bombing or boots on the ground, nor has any effective 're-education program' against extreme ideologies been developed.

This latter area is where most of the effort should be aimed now. Terrorist organizations recruit via the internet, and it is via the internet that these ideologies can most effectively be attacked. If this fails, the West will probably find itself left with nothing other than a choice between mass killing of innocent and guilty muslims alike, or become resigned to the low odds of being the victim of more hideous, random, but organized, terrorist attacks and the continual expense and waste of human resources that entails...

 

[AAAintheBeltway]

Liberals tend not to have a lot of experience in the real world, so they are completely clueless about things like how guns are manufactured. They just know they are bad.

 

[piezoe]

Piezoe looking at the bright side trusting, politicians and believing their incompetence is because of incompetence. I admire that.

One other scenario. Perhaps George Soros through George Bush and their banker and politician friends really are gathering in the world's resources... from food and water to businesses and women.

Western govts will continue to be purposely less than fully effective.... they will import terrorists into each western country. They will use the terrorism these refujihadists create as an excuse to set of fascist controls run by cronies all over the west. Then when full crony control of the west is implemented... they will do a full out assault on muslims in every country around the world...

The end game being one crony run govt or govt around the world with technology deployed by Accenture or IBM utilizing RFID cards for entry, exit and commerce.

My concerns are much the same. One point on which we differ is Soros. I think he is cut from an entirely different mold. Most of the stuff you read on the internet about him is way off the mark. Let's change the subject. What do you think of Sander's single payer health proposal?

 

[CaptainObvious]

ISIS does not need to do much of anything until complacency creeps back in again. With these few attacks they can leverage a few thousand, or hundred thousand, dollar equivalents into a few billion or trillion dollars of damage to the Western economies. This is what's at the bottom of organized terrorist attacks. There will always be a few wildcatters trying to blow up their shoes, etc., but the organized attacks will be relatively few and will subside, for awhile at least. There need be just enough attacks to keep us expending resources and keep us permanently on an expensive, economically destructive war footing. The people at the top of these terrorists organizations are, typically, educated and very smart, as well as deranged of course. They understand well how to leverage their resources and what weapons are most effective against the Western powers.

This kind of thing can go on for a very long time. Conventional warfare against specific targets is both costly and ineffective against extreme ideologies. The West, so far, has not found a way to kill these radical ideologies using either selective bombing or boots on the ground, nor has any effective 're-education program' against extreme ideologies been developed.

This latter area is where most of the effort should be aimed now. Terrorist organizations recruit via the internet, and it is via the internet that these ideologies can most effectively be attacked. If this fails, the West will probably find itself left with nothing other than a choice between mass killing of innocent and guilty muslims alike, or become resigned to the low odds of being the victim of more hideous, random, but organized, terrorist attacks and the continual expense and waste of human resources that entails...

We have never prosecuted the war effectively so we really can't say bombing campaigns and boots on ground the would have been, or would be effective. We have never established a front, taken and secured ground, move forward and repeat. Granted it would be much more difficult now seeing how we have dicked around for years on end, but to dismiss it entirely is a mistake. Re-education hasn't and won't work. Like you say, we can accept a certain about of our own people dying at the hands of terrorists or kill Muslims, radical and otherwise in mass numbers. Should we accept our own casualties as part of the game, the odds of getting killed by terrorists will go up, and up, and up. That's where we're at.

 

[AAAintheBeltway]

These attacks are little different than mafia-style intimidation. Pay up or we'll be back. In the case of these terrorists, no doubt they will start making demands secretly to western governments. Accept this many immigrants, allow sharia law, get out of Syria, etc.

Any action you see western governments take now will have to be judged against this possibility. We, and the terrorists, have seen just how cowardly and craven university administrators are. The terrorists have no reason to believe our governments will react any differently. We don't enforce our existing immigration laws and our society is obsessed with things that reek of sick decadence to islamists.

 

[piezoe]

We have never prosecuted the war effectively so we really can't say bombing campaigns and boots on ground the would have been, or would be effective. We have never established a front, taken and secured ground, move forward and repeat. Granted it would be much more difficult now seeing how we have dicked around for years on end, but to dismiss it entirely is a mistake. Re-education hasn't and won't work. Like you say, we can accept a certain about of our own people dying at the hands of terrorists or kill Muslims, radical and otherwise in mass numbers. Should we accept our own casualties as part of the game, the odds of getting killed by terrorists will go up, and up, and up. That's where we're at.

My thinking is that if you prosecute the war, as you suggest, with boots on the ground, seize and hold ground, world war II style, as you suggest. Then you can't leave! If you do, everything will unravel. Those boots will be stuck there for two generations while you take complete control of the country, build schools, hospitals, infrastructure, new democratic institutions, and educate two generations of terrorist offspring. Then, and only then, 40 years later, if you leave, things may not fly apart. Yes, we can seize their resources and use the income to defray costs, but is there any stomach for such a long term commitment. I don't think so. This radical Islamic world is very different from Western Europe in WW II.

Perhaps Ron Paul said it best: "They are over here because we are over there."
Or is there much more than Ron Paul's observation behind this centuries old, hot and cold Islamist vs. Christian Conflict?

 

[377OHMS]

France has been through all of this before with Algeria. They got pretty good with counter-terror ops. Really good actually. They just need to channel some of that experience.

I spent some time in French Guiana and saw the FFL around a lot. They sent a couple of young guys over with an anti-aircraft gun which they setup literally in the parking lot near where I had setup a makeshift satellite rig to communicate with TDRSS from the Space Center.

Though most of them were not french they were not to be trifled with and we were warned about mixing with them in local bars. I didn't have any trouble with them but I was very careful about interacting with women in a bar or restaurant where lots of foreign legion was present. They seemed to be a serious lot.

 

[piezoe]

France has been through all of this before with Algeria. They got pretty good with counter-terror ops. Really good actually. They just need to channel some of that experience.

I spent some time in French Guiana and saw the FFL around a lot. They sent a couple of young guys over with an anti-aircraft gun which they setup literally in the parking lot near where I had setup a makeshift satellite rig to communicate with TDRSS from the Space Center.

Though most of them were not french they were not to be trifled with and we were warned about mixing with them in local bars. I didn't have any trouble with them but I was very careful about interacting with women in a bar or restaurant where lots of foreign legion was present. They seemed to be a serious lot.

So, any thoughts on what should be done by the Western powers at this point?

 

[CaptainObvious]

My thinking is that if you prosecute the war, as you suggest, with boots on the ground, seize and hold ground, world war II style, as you suggest. Then you can't leave! If you do, everything will unravel. Those boots will be stuck there for two generations while you take complete control of the country, build schools, hospitals, infrastructure, new democratic institutions, and educate two generations of terrorist offspring. Then, and only then, 40 years later, if you leave, things may not fly apart. Yes, we can seize their resources and use the income to defray costs, but is there any stomach for such a long term commitment. I don't think so. This radical Islamic world is very different from Western Europe in WW II.

Perhaps Ron Paul said it best: "They are over here because we are over there."
Or is there much more than Ron Paul's observation behind this centuries old, hot and cold Islamist vs. Christian Conflict?

Perhaps Ron Paul said it best: "They are over here because we are over there." There was a whole lot more validity to that argument 20-30 years ago. Todays jihadi is a whole different animal.
Think of it in terms of the BLM klan. This group has nothing in common with the civil rights groups of the 50's and 60's. Then there were actual grievances. True racist oppression and discrimination, much of it state sponsored. Todays group has to fabricate these things where none exists. It's about revenge for them. Revenge for sins of the past that they don't experience.
ISIS and other modern day terrorists aren't in it for justice. This is the holey war, end times, all infidels must die. They buy this hook, line and sinker. There is nothing to negotiate.
We are act the preverbal fork in the road. A decision must be made. We can vacate the premises entirely and watch a genocide the likes of which has never occurred in modern history, and keep our fingers crossed that they just slaughter each other and leave us out of it. Unlikely, but possible. Or, we can enter this holey war full tilt and you're right. It will cost trillions of dollars and most likely tens of thousands of American lives. Millions of Muslims will be killed. The carnage will be horrific, and then as you state, we have to stick around for decades and the whole place might still go up for grabs.
My idea at the moment. Vacate the entire region and give fair warning. One terrorist attack on American soil and we nuke the entire region. Yes, I mean nuke. Burn the whole f'n place to the ground and hit the re-set button. Or we can just be nibbled to death by a duck.
Bottom line is, we aren't going to be able to just wish this away. Decisions will be made by us, or for us. Either way it's really messy.

 

[ipatent]

Funny how being near oil, gas and poppies polarizes Muslims. The ones in Indonesia and The Maghreb don't seem to give us much trouble.