Our Next President

[monty21]

Yanni,

IRAN IS NOT A THREAT TO OUR NATIONAL SECURITY.

Listen, we have huge military boats 100 miles off their shore. How would you feel if China came 100 miles off of the state of New York. We are provoking them.

Furthermore, it has been revealed several times that they are not making nuclear weapons. But in they case they do, why is that bad? America and Russia have thousands of nukes. Pakistan has nukes. Israel has several hundreds and has not even signed the non-proliferation treaty. Nukes are defensive weapons. Maybe if they get some, America will not be so aggresive to police the world, or at least the middle east.

China has threathened to use nukes on its own people in Taiwan and the US has not said anything. When the president of Iran said that about Israel, then we hear it like crazy. China is equally as dangerous so why can they have weapons. China is communist and authoratarian basically.

If we can have thousands of nukes, everyone should be able to have some. Who are we to say that we are better than most people and least radical.

Just because Iran is an openly Muslim country, does not mean it is a threat. We are a Christian country ourselves and the president always talks about faith. Saudi Arabia is the most fundamentally Islam country in the world, and we love them. Countries that do not adhere to western norms should not be labelled as threathening for that sole reason.

 

[Gord]

Quote from monty21:

Wow, America spreads Democracy? In the case of Pakistan, the U.S. gov't helped Musharaff, a military dictator, overthrow an elected/democratic government. The country possesses nukes and is extremely unstable.

The CIA has been involved in a number of similar overthrowing strategies throughout South America for the past several decades as well.

Also, think about how democratic we our ourselves. Think about the 2000 election and the situation in Florida. Im a Republican, but what happened there was pitiful.

In regards to freedom, we are less free now than we were in the 1990s. After 9/11 all of these ridiculous policies aimed at "fighting terrorism" have shrunk our civil liberties. Think about the patriot act, Guantanamo Bay, and the creation of Homeland Security (resembles a Gustapo or secret police).

On a final note, I would like to ask countries such as Germany and Japan whether they enjoy having the American military on their soil.

So your arguement is because not everything goes as hoped America's motives must be evil.

Please provide evidence for your assertion that the American government overthrows democracies to install dictators.

Please list these civil liberties that you have lost.

Do you have even the faintest clue what the Gustapo were like and how you insult our law enforcement agencies with this kind of crap?

And finally, when John Kerry proposed that he as president would close military bases around the world, there were numerous objections, including from Germany and Japan.

For somebody who claims to be a Republican you sure sound like a whiney liberal...

 

[monty21]

Quote from Gord:

So your arguement is because not everything goes as hoped America's motives must be evil.

Please provide evidence for your assertion that the American government overthrows democracies to install dictators.

Please list these civil liberties that you have lost.

Do you have even the faintest clue what the Gustapo were like and how you insult our law enforcement agencies with this kind of crap?

And finally, when John Kerry proposed that he as president would close military bases around the world, there were numerous objections, including from Germany and Japan.

For somebody who claims to be a Republican you sure sound like a whiney liberal...

Civil Liberties lost: No right to a lawyer and habeas corpus (trial by jury) in Guantanamo Bay… If someone suspected me of being a terrorist, even with no evidence, government agents can search my home without a warrant… access to records and phone tapping more prevalent/legalized since 9/11

About overthrowing democracies: Best example is when we overthrow the Iran gov’t and put the Shah in power. There are so many other examples in smaller countries that you can just explore these two websites, or just google the topic.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/CIAtimeline.html

http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon2/world.html

Please also remember that we put Saddam Hussein in power. We also trained Al Qaeda, put them in power in Afghanistan and had relations with Osama Bin Ladin.

Also keep in mind that history is written by the winners. If the German Nazi’s had won WWII, their atrocities would be hidden/downplayed/etc. by the government. Think about some of the things that the American soldiers did in Vietnam (all countries do evil things during times of war). This is how propaganda works (some case with the Soviet Union). Please do not be so blind to not believe that a similar propaganda machine is absent from the U.S. We too frequently use the disguise of democracy to carry out our wars and more hidden agendas.

Iraq never threatened our national security nor has Afghanistan. Congress never declared war. We should go after those responsible for 9/11. We seemingly took care of Al Qaeda, but what about Bin Ladin? Most of the hijackers were Saudi and we love them? Some of the masterminds were Egyptians and we also love Egypt and give them 2 billion in aid. Obviously, the government’s may have not known about this, but there is good evidence in Saudi Arabia.

 

[ratboy88]

Quote from monty21:

Civil Liberties lost: No right to a lawyer and habeas corpus (trial by jury) in Guantanamo Bay… If someone suspected me of being a terrorist, even with no evidence, government agents can search my home without a warrant… access to records and phone tapping more prevalent/legalized since 9/11......

monty,

i appreciate the effort, but trying to debate with yappi and gordo is like arguing with dumb and dumber. you can win.. but they wouldn't know they had been defeated. what i am saying is.. it's a waste of time.

 

[monty21]

Quote from ratboy88:

monty,

i appreciate the effort, but trying to debate with yappi and gordo is like arguing with dumb and dumber. you can win.. but they wouldn't know they had been defeated. what i am saying is.. it's a waste of time.

lol...k sounds good

 

[Gord]

Quote from monty21:

Civil Liberties lost: No right to a lawyer and habeas corpus (trial by jury) in Guantanamo Bay…

Since when were foreign terrorists captured on foreign soil covered by habeas corpus? They are not even covered by the Geneva Convention as prisoners of war because they were not wearing uniforms. Your assertion amounts to giving more rights to terrorists than to legitimate prisoners of war who are not given the right to a trial and can be legitimately kept prisoner until the war is over.

If someone suspected me of being a terrorist, even with no evidence, government agents can search my home without a warrant… access to records and phone tapping more prevalent/legalized since 9/11

This is just bull.

About overthrowing democracies: Best example is when we overthrow the Iran gov’t and put the Shah in power. There are so many other examples in smaller countries that you can just explore these two websites, or just google the topic.

This was replacing one despot with another.

Please also remember that we put Saddam Hussein in power. We also trained Al Qaeda, put them in power in Afghanistan and had relations with Osama Bin Ladin.

Again these are not examples of democracies being overthrown.

Also keep in mind that history is written by the winners. If the German Nazi’s had won WWII, their atrocities would be hidden/downplayed/etc. by the government. Think about some of the things that the American soldiers did in Vietnam (all countries do evil things during times of war). This is how propaganda works (some case with the Soviet Union). Please do not be so blind to not believe that a similar propaganda machine is absent from the U.S. We too frequently use the disguise of democracy to carry out our wars and more hidden agendas.

That's great logic - America won so it is evil. But in the case of Viet Nam America lost, so it must be evil.

Iraq never threatened our national security nor has Afghanistan. Congress never declared war.

Ever heard of UN Resolution 1441? How about the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002?

We should go after those responsible for 9/11. We seemingly took care of Al Qaeda, but what about Bin Ladin? Most of the hijackers were Saudi and we love them? Some of the masterminds were Egyptians and we also love Egypt and give them 2 billion in aid. Obviously, the government’s may have not known about this, but there is good evidence in Saudi Arabia.

So now your saying America should invade Saudi Arabia and Egypt?!?!? Their governments were not involved and they did not harbor al Qaeda.

You definitely have a logic problem...

 

[Gord]

Quote from ratboy88:

monty,

i appreciate the effort, but trying to debate with yappi and gordo is like arguing with dumb and dumber. you can win.. but they wouldn't know they had been defeated. what i am saying is.. it's a waste of time.

So little conspiracyboy peaks out of his rat hole.

Where is that evidence that you said you had when you "begged people to listen ... before the war" that it was all a big conspiracy? You know - the evidence that the conspiracy "was planned in the 90's". You said "it was easy to figure out." So it must be easy to explain.

You said you "argued ad nauseam with friends and co workers that thought i was crazy." You haven't even given us one piece of evidence to argue about. So why shouldn't we just conclude that your "friends and co workers" were right?

You said, "this stuff is formulaic." What's this mysterious formula?

Oh yeah - I forgot. Little rat-turd ran away to ignore-land so he wouldn't have to deal with these questions...

 

[bullmarket79]

look father time will be able to lead us out of the wilderness the neocons put us in.

 

[SteveD]

Monty,

If you are really a senior in college the first thing I would do is sue that college.....you paid for an education and they obviously have not educated you....

You are truly a simple moron....my guess is that you are a Muslim...you can always tell when talk about Isreal comes around....no matter where the subject starts you Muslims always end up with Isreal as the problem with the world....LOL

You have a very hard painful life ahead of you.....


SteveD

 

[monty21]

Gord,

We obviously disagree about this subject... This debate could last forever, so I'm not going to bother much anymore. I felt like I provided a lot of evidence. You interpreted some of it the wrong way (thats my fault because of the way I wrote it). For example, I certainly do not advocate invading Saudia Arabia or Egypt. My point was that we are seemingly invading the "wrong" countries in this War termed as the "war on Terror". Furthermore, there is more evidence that the Saudi's had connections to the hijackers than Iraq did. So I'm sure we several of these misunderstandings.

Anyways, just do know that the U.S. government is occupying Iraq. Also realize that Iraq is completely unstable, because there are now 3 groups playing for power (more so just the Sunni's and Shittes).

Please realize that the world is now more dangerous because Anti-American sentiment has risen throughout the world, not just in the Middle East. Recruiting for radical groups such as Al Qaeda has increased.

And please look over the history of the CIA in the past 50 years. One of those websites was very informative.

On the simpliest level, all I am trying to advocate is that we should change our foreign policy and stay out of other countries affairs. This was the advice the founders provided for us, such as Thomas Jefferson. I'm a Republican because I support a free market and am against a welfare state. Also, the Democrats have traditionally brought us into war. IMO, Bush horribly represents the Republican Party. He has tried to lower taxes, but he is spending like crazy. His spending is more than any other president, and this better resembles a Democrat. Still, the most important point that I would like to address is that our current foreign policy is failing. No more American lives, or lives of any human beings should be sacrified in pursuit of such a unneccesary path.