If these charges are true, why would they ever release this monster to recover dead bodies of soldiers? I understand there is another live hostage, so perhaps this is part of a larger deal, but it is still hard to fathom. Israel has always taken the position that all its citizens were to be regarded as soldiers and not bargained for if taken hpstage. Now this. I don't understand it.
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One man's child murderer-muslim world's islamic hero
- Thread starter a_person
- Start date
Quote from AAAintheBeltway:
If these charges are true,
The charges have never been disputed, not even by Hizbullah, "destructive" here in this thread is probably the only person in the world who's trying to cast doubt.
why would they ever release this monster to recover dead bodies of soldiers?
They did not know for a fact that the soldiers were dead although they hardly had any doubt. It is not an attempt to answer your question though as I keep asking myself the same "why would they do it" question.
I understand there is another live hostage, so perhaps this is part of a larger deal,
The other hostage is held by Hamas in Gaza, this was not part of a larger deal, if anything, recovering the live hostage will be infinitely harder. Hamas was asking for 500 terrorists in return, they will start asking for 2000 now and won't even have an incentive to keep this hostage alive as Israel is obviously willing to pay the same price for a corpse.
Israel has always taken the position that all its citizens were to be regarded as soldiers and not bargained for if taken hpstage.
They were soldiers (reservists) and they were killed and captured (in that order) in the line of duty. Israel has always taken the position that they don't leave their soldiers behind - dead or alive. And they have always taken the position that they don't negotiate with terrorists so they are occasionally in a bind and unable to reconcile these two contradictory positions.
I don't understand it.
Me neither. The government of Israel is trying to rationalize it by jewish morality, the psychology of Holocaust survivors and the claim that battle-bound Israeli soldiers and their families should always believe that they will not be left behind. I don't buy these explanations, either the government gave in to public pressure or they are trying to clear the plate before an imminent attack on Iran.
Quote from AAAintheBeltway:
If these charges are true, why would they ever release this monster to recover dead bodies of soldiers? I understand there is another live hostage, so perhaps this is part of a larger deal, but it is still hard to fathom. Israel has always taken the position that all its citizens were to be regarded as soldiers and not bargained for if taken hpstage. Now this. I don't understand it.
I do . Jews are getting soft .Beginning of the end.
That is bullshit, the two sides are in complete dispute. Hizbollah and Lebanon argues that the guy was shot 7 times before he supposedly killed the girl, so he would never have been strong enough to do it, and that he was supposed to bring live people back to Lebanon, not dead. They argue that Israel is lying for the sake of propaganda, and there's a war of propaganda going and, you know that perfectly well. If the Israeli soldiers by any chance missed and shot the 4-year old them self, there's no doubt they would have presented the story as their doing. My point is NOT that he is innocent, I have no clue and really think Lebanon should go a long way to find out exactly what happened. But you can't trust every claim Israel does when there is a propaganda war going on, no more than anyone should have trusted Goebbels. Or the PLO for that matter.Quote from a_person:
If these charges are true,
The charges have never been disputed, not even by Hizbullah, "destructive" here in this thread is probably the only person in the world who's trying to cast doubt.
According to Kuntar's former cellmate Yasser Hanjar, Kuntar "never expressed remorse, but maintains a different version [of the events] than the Israeli one"... "Kuntar firmly rejected allegations he had smashed the head of 4-year-old Einat Haran" [6]
Excerpts of Kuntar's court testimony from 1980 were published for the first time after he was released; according to him, Israeli gunfire had killed Haran when soldiers burst in to free him, and he did not see what happened to Haran's daughter.[7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samir_Kuntar
From your own link:
According to the witnesses, Kuntar shot Danny at close range in the back, in front of his daughter, and drowned him in the sea to ensure he was dead. Next, eyewitnesses said he smashed the head of 4 year-old Einat on beach rocks and crushed her skull with the butt of his rifle.[4] After being captured, Kunter initially admitted to bludgeoning Einat to death, but at his trial, and consistently afterwords, he denied killing the 4-year-old.[6] After nearly thirty year of being classified, File No. 578/79, the evidence and testimony from Kuntar's 1980 trial, was first published. The pathologist's report presented at the trial stated that Einat's brain matter was found on the butt of Kuntar's rifle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samir_Kuntar#Shootout_and_capture
Kuntar "never expressed remorse, but maintains a different version [of the events]
Surprise!!! Convicted terrorist, hostage taker and child murderer does not show remorse and denies his guilt. What an unheard-of event. LOL. Please forgive me, there are two people denying his guilt, you and the murderer himself.
No destructive, you are not a Scandinavian, you are too stupid to be a European (and I have no love lost for Europe), you are a typical member of the arab street with their "muslims can do no wrong, everything is Israel's fault and jewish conspiracy" mentality.
Why do you keep twisting my words? I have not denied this persons guilt in any of my previous posts. You claimed that the Lebanese people are celebrating him for being a child murderer as if they agree and actually like people who murders 4 year old girls. All I've done is successfully prove you wrong. I've not denied anything, I simply don't know what happened.Quote from a_person:
urprise!!! Convicted terrorist, hostage taker and child murderer does not show remorse and denies his guilt. What an unheard-of event. LOL. Please forgive me, there are two people denying his guilt, you and the murderer himself.
If this incident was a civil matter unrelated to the war, I wouldn't have had trouble believing their claims, but in war the truth is always neglected at the expanse of whatever version might benefit the fighting parts. Now if Israel had a clean record, it would certainly be easier to believe what they say, but Israel has one of the darkest records in the world when comes to telling the truth; one swift look at their record tells us they say EXACTLY what benefits their cause the most, no matter what it's about (I'd be happy to give TONS of irrefutable documentation for this). They deliberately attacked US targets with the purpose of generating support, for Christ's sake. If they're ready to manipulate the reality of American victims, why on earth wouldn't they manipulate the reality of a captured terrorist?
You seem to be utterly incapable of having a debate about the issues; you twist and turn every single thing your counterparts (not just me) say and you do everything in your power to make the debate about your opponents rather than the facts of the issues. I'm sorry I have to be the one telling you this, but I sincerely believe your intellectual level is nowhere near what is needed to engage in debates about geopolitics and global issues. Every time you go off in one of your rants about your "savages", you provide fuel for the other side. In all fairness, I guess I should be thanking you; I'd like you to have your own talk show. The world certainly needs more Bill O'Reillys.
Why would I care who you think I am? I've never claimed to be credible for my person, I document my claims by information that is available to anyone, and I try to use argumentative reasoning to explain my views. If you disagree with my sources or if you see flaws in my reasoning, you ought to show me contradictory evidence, explain where I'm off in my logic. Your obsession with my person is extremely uninteresting.Quote from a_person:
No destructive, you are not a Scandinavian, you are too stupid to be a European (and I have no love lost for Europe), you are a typical member of the arab street with their "muslims can do no wrong, everything is Israel's fault and jewish conspiracy" mentality.
Quote from destroyer:
I have not denied this persons guilt in any of my previous posts.
You are trying your best to cast doubt on his guilt even though you don't have a shred of evidence. Witnesses testified against Kuntar, he originally admitted to the murders, the pathologist's report stated that the girl's brain matter was found on the butt of Kuntar's rifle. There never was a single piece of evidence in his defense. None! Case closed!!!
You claimed that the Lebanese people are celebrating him for being a child murderer
He is a child murderer beyond a shadow of doubt. "I don't trust Israel" is hardly serious defense and that's the best you've come up with so far. He is also a terrorist, a murderer and a hostage taker.
He is a terrorist and child murderer and the Lebanese people are honoring him as a hero. The Lebanese Pres and PM know the charges and know full well that there is no evidence in his defense and yet they show up to greet him. Abbas calls to congratulate him, Lebanese newspapers have a field day...
While the Israelis weep for two dead soldiers the arabs declare a national holiday to celebrate 200 dead militants and 5 live murderers. It tells you everything you need to know about their culture.
The purpose of my posts in this thread was not to excuse nor justify what this Kuntar has done, I really don't know anything about him. My purpose was to highlight the logical error in your claim that the Lebanese people are savages.Quote from a_person:
I have not denied this persons guilt in any of my previous posts.
You are trying your best to cast doubt on his guilt even though you don't have a shred of evidence. Witnesses testified against Kuntar, he originally admitted to the murders, the pathologist's report stated that the girl's brain matter was found on the butt of Kuntar's rifle. There never was a single piece of evidence in his defense. None! Case closed!!!
You claim that a) Kuntar is a child murder and b) the Lebanese worship Kuntar. With b) given a), you assume that the Lebanese are worshiping a child murderer and therefor conclude that they are savages. This flawed logic is the very same that is being used by fundamentalists all across the Arab world in order to spread hatred; they say that a) Western soldiers are killing us by the thousands, b) the western people supports and encourages their soldiers, and with b) given a) they conclude that the western people have no respect for the life of Muslims. You can do the same thing with God, you can say that he a) killed innocent people in the thousands (In Egypt and Canaan amongst other places), b) All Christians worship God, and b given a, one can conclude that all Christians are evil beings supporting the slaughter of innocent human life.
This kind of logical fallacy is dangerous and no one should be preaching it, no matter how much one hates the considered people. If you sincerely do not see how it is wrong - if your not only preaching hatred because you want to spread hate rather than understand the situation, I'll explain it to you.
You claimed that The charges have never been disputed, not even by Hizbullah. This is a factual error which I provided the wiki article for. My intent with this link was not to show that he might be innocent like you tried to claim, my intent was simply to show that the other side is disputing the charges, because it is highly related to the first point I was making about your flawed logic. The same goes for my casting doubt over Israeli charges; as long as their at war with Israel and as long as Israel gives no reason whatsoever to trust them, the Lebanese really should not trust anything they say.
Sure they know the charges, just like Arabs "knew" that Arabs were attacking US targets, when the attackers were in fact Israeli Black Ops. Can you provide any evidence or sources to show that the Lebanese acknowledge the Israeli charges and believe in them? Because as long as you're trying to make the case that the Lebanese are savages, it is their perception that matters, not yours.Quote from a_person:
He is a terrorist and child murderer and the Lebanese people are honoring him as a hero. The Lebanese Pres and PM know the charges and know full well that there is no evidence in his defense and yet they show up to greet him. Abbas calls to congratulate him, Lebanese newspapers have a field day...
This whole celebration is about politics, it's about the Hizbollah victory over Israel, about the fact that somebody finally after years and years of being beat have managed to give Israel a tiny tad of trouble. It's got nothing to do with the murderers and their actions, nobody is thinking about their actions, nobody is visualizing how their victims suffered. To them, this whole thing is no different than getting home any POW after two decades in enemy prisons.Quote from a_person:
While the Israelis weep for two dead soldiers the arabs declare a national holiday to celebrate 200 dead militants and 5 live murderers. It tells you everything you need to know about their culture. [/B]
Quote from destroyer:
The purpose of my posts in this thread was not to excuse nor justify what this Kuntar has done,
Your purpose was to cast some doubt on the whole thing even though you don't have a shred of evidence to contradict his guilt.
You claim that a) Kuntar is a child murder
He is a convicted child murderer, murderer of other people, terrorist and hostage taker.
and b) the Lebanese worship Kuntar.
They do, don't they?
you assume that the Lebanese are worshiping a child murderer
It's not an assumption, it's a fact. He is a convicted child murderer and they do worship him.
This flawed logic is the very same that is being used by fundamentalists all across the Arab world in order to spread hatred; they say that a) Western soldiers are killing us by the thousands, b) the western people supports and encourages their soldiers, and with b) given a) they conclude that the western people have no respect for the life of Muslims.
The flawed logic is that because the arab/muslim street is brainwashed, ignorant and fanatical (as you correctly point out in your statement above) it somehow makes the conviction of Kuntar any less viable, solid or undeniable.
This kind of logical fallacy is dangerous
Indeed. What you are saying is that the arab street believes in a bunch of crap and therefore Kuntar's conviction in a court of law is also questionable. This is a dangerous and absurd logical fallacy. The only logical conclusion that can be reached is that people who are perpetually enraged, who believe in any kind of absurd nonsense and who celebrate a convicted murderer, child murderer, terrorist and hostage taker are blood-thirsty savages.
You claimed that The charges have never been disputed, not even by Hizbullah. This is a factual error which I provided the wiki article for.
The article said that Kuntar disputed the charges (after he had admitted them). Breaking news - convicted murderer disputes charges!!! LOL. The article did not mention anyone else disputing the charges. Try again.