One if by land, two if by sea, three if by air

First let me start with "in my opinion", war/intervention should not be avoided in all costs. Freedom from fear, oppression and abuse whether from government/dictator, spouse or parent I believe to be a very good thing.

Are you in favor of stopping spousal abuse? Are you in favor of stopping child abuse? The abuse of a people by their leader is only a matter of scale and is no different in my opinion than the preceding two.

I will be the first to admit there are a lot of problems and hidden agendas in U.S. foreign policy.

I believe we should have liberated the people of Iraq 12 years ago when we were there. I believe we should not have let the UN resolutions be ignored with no weapons inspectors for years.

I believe we should have liberated the women of Afghanistan years ago. I don't understand why we didn't. Yes it could be that there was no economic benefit.

Most of the time a child, a spouse, the women of Afghanistan or a people are unable to stop the abuse on their own. There must be intervention by an official, a relative/family member, a neighbor or another government.

Should Hitler, Stalin, etc. have been stopped. To insure the freedom of the world I believe so.

I personally have friends here in the U.S. from both Iran and Iraq.
Should Saddam be stopped. I believe so. Not based on news reports but on first hand accounts of what has been happening for years.

I do not agree with a lot of what our government (both local and national) do. I am concerned with some of the anti protest laws I hear are being proposed (Portland). I dislike current campaign finance etc. etc. etc. But even as a child might not like his curfew, etc. I know as a member of the U.S. family I enjoy freedom of choice and freedom from most types of abuse. I don't have to hear about this in the media, I LIVE IT EVERY DAY. Do I love it all, no, do I love most of it "Damn Right!!!. Having lived in other countries, I realize how lucky we are.

If the U.S. and the rest of the world is to have any chance at FREEDOM (right of choice and lack of abuse) and a prolonged peace, then war can not be avoided at all cost. I believe war is a bad but sometimes a necessary course of action.

Many will disagree, but my experience, not the media, tells me this is so.

I love that I have the freedom to express this opinion and you should love that you have the freedom to disagree. But without previous wars, we would not enjoy this freedom. Without future wars you will not be able to maintain this freedom, this I guarantee you.
 
Ya know, if you truly are anti-war, and you honestly believe that peace is always better than war, then you must also believe that:

1) All the denizens of the globe are rational and sane and thus we as a race are always able to come to a reasonable agreement every time we disagree about something,

and/or

2) It is better to endure oppression and all that goes with it - torture, secret police carrying away you or your loved ones in the middle of the night, no freedom to speak out, etc, etc, - than it is to fight against it.

History has proven point 1 to be false. The list of madmen who have plunged this world into chaos for their own twisted visions of global domination is long and bloody.

As for point # 2, the opinion that really matters will be that of the people affected, in this case the Iraqis.

We will hear from them once they can do so without fear of retribution by Saddam and his minions, but thus far those we have heard are blowing your argument to bits with actions such as this:

0,,2003160136,00.gif


By MIKE DARVILL

JUBILANT Iraqis celebrate their new-found freedom yesterday — by tearing down a statue of hated tyrant Saddam Hussein.

Hundreds begged US troops to help tie a rope around the 17ft high bronze figure and take a blowtorch to its ankles.

Then they pulled — and whooped with delight as the statue crashed to the ground.

First, an American welder spent an hour weakening the statue.Then locals hauled until the rope snapped. Another was fixed in place, and many among the watching thousands applauded as Saddam fell head first on to a stepped podium above a pool of water.

Scores clambered over the statue and beat it with shoes or anything else they could grab.

One onlooker said: “It’s very good because we don’t like it.”

An elderly man added in broken English: “Good, good, good — Mr W. Bush, no Saddam.”

As US troops proudly wore flowers given to them by townsfolk, a 25-year-old said he could not understand opposition to the war.

He asked: “Everyone who refuses this war — why?”

Pointing to the statue, he went on: “Come here and live two days with this man, and then refuse this war.”

Enough said...


(thanks to Optional for the .gif - borrowed from another thread)
 
Quote from hapaboy:

Ya know, if you truly are anti-war, and you honestly believe that peace is always better than war, then you must also believe that:

1) All the denizens of the globe are rational and sane and thus we as a race are always able to come to a reasonable agreement every time we disagree about something,

and/or

2) It is better to endure oppression and all that goes with it - torture, secret police carrying away you or your loved ones in the middle of the night, no freedom to speak out, etc, etc, - than it is to fight against it.

... etc ...
More...
Good post. This is exactly how I feel about it.
 
Quote from hapaboy:

2) It is better to endure oppression and all that goes with it - torture, secret police carrying away you or your loved ones in the middle of the night, no freedom to speak out, etc, etc, - than it is to fight against it.
More...

this supports the argument for oppressed people to fight against their own oppression. few could disagree with that.

it does not imply that an independent country should take it upon itself to arbitrarily select one of scores of countries full of oppressed people and perform the fighting, paying, and dying on their behalf.
 
Quote from Madison:



this supports the argument for oppressed people to fight against their own oppression. few could disagree with that.

it does not imply that an independent country should take it upon itself to arbitrarily select one of scores of countries full of oppressed people and perform the fighting, paying, and dying on their behalf.
More...
I see your point, but not many oppressed groups in this world have the wherewithal to fight their oppressors without being obliterated. Just look at the Iraqi minority groups after the last gulf war, or the thousands and thousands slaughtered in africa year after year.
 
Quote from Madison:



this supports the argument for oppressed people to fight against their own oppression. few could disagree with that.

it does not imply that an independent country should take it upon itself to arbitrarily select one of scores of countries full of oppressed people and perform the fighting, paying, and dying on their behalf.
More...

Has it ever occurred to you that in a global economy, oppressors can gain access to wealth and weapons that make resistance by the oppressed virtually impossible? Or that, even before the modern age, the oppressed have often needed help from external powers in their struggles against the powerful. Those people in that obscure country with the lighthouse needed some help, too, as I recall.

And, as for your second point, which country do you think was "arbitrarily" selected? You think we just made up a list of unfortunate countries and picked one at random?

Now, if there were many countries in the world, rather than just one, that we and even more our allies and former enemies had supported and thus enabled to gain and maintain power; that possessed and had used weapons of mass destruction; that maintained active WMD programs that employed thousands of scientists and technicians and were capable of quickly increasing production; that were run by leadership cliques with repeatedly stated and proved ambitions of conquest and regional dominance; that had access to great oil wealth which it had consistently missappropriated, largely for the sake of arming and maintaining their security elites; that existed in a geographic position that enabled them to threaten the bases of the world economy; that hosted and encouraged numerous terrorist groups responsible for direct attacks on ourselves and our allies; that sustained brutally oppressed populations that we had previously encouraged to rise up but then had betrayed; that repeatedly engaged in acts of genocide; that had solemnly concluded ceasefire agreements with us at the end of one of their previous aggressions and then had flagrantly broken those agreements, thus putting our will and therefore our security in doubt before all of our actual or potential adversaries - then the world would be in even worse shape than it is, but we would still be left with no choice other than to start somewhere.
 
...maybe you can get these kids put back in jail, too:

Jailed Iraqi children run free as marines roll into Baghdad suburbs
Tue Apr 8,12:30 PM ET Add Mideast - AFP to My Yahoo!

BAGHDAD (AFP) - More than 100 children held in a prison celebrated their freedom as US marines rolled into northeast Baghdad amid chaotic scenes which saw civilians loot weapons from an army compound, a US officer said.

Around 150 children spilled out of the jail after the gates were opened as a US military Humvee vehicle approached, Lieutenant Colonel Fred Padilla told an AFP correspondent travelling with the Marines 5th Regiment.

"Hundreds of kids were swarming us and kissing us," Padilla said.

"There were parents running up, so happy to have their kids back."

"The children had been imprisoned because they had not joined the youth branch of the Baath party," he alleged. "Some of these kids had been in there for five years."

The children, who were wearing threadbare clothes and looked under-nourished, walked on the streets crossing their hands as if to mimic handcuffs, before giving the thumbs up sign and shouting their thanks.
More...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...east_afp/iraq_war_marines_prison_030408163048

So maybe you can arrange to stop the bombing (assuming it's still going on by the time you have your demonstration), put the Baath Party back in power, and stuff those evil delinquents back in their cells, too. While you're at it, you can get those torture chambers up and running again, too - shame to see so much space and equipment put to waste. It shouldn't be too hard to track down those Iraqis who were foolish enough to celebrate their freedom on camera.

Such an accomplishment for you to tell your own kids about some day!
 
Quote from Madison:

this supports the argument for oppressed people to fight against their own oppression. few could disagree with that.

it does not imply that an independent country should take it upon itself to arbitrarily select one of scores of countries full of oppressed people and perform the fighting, paying, and dying on their behalf.
More...

So sad, Madison.

I find your idea very disturbing. You're willing to admit that there are sincerely evil people out there, evil governments in fact, yet you don't feel the need to do anything about them. Isolationism at all costs?

Better to believe in pipe dreams of "containment," and UN "enforcement" while those that would do us harm grow stronger and continue to repress their own people in atrocious ways.

What you're basically saying is: How unfortunate, but they haven't done anything to me YET, so what the heck. Any action we take prior to one of our cities being destroyed would be, well, plain wrong.

So the US picks and chooses. News Flash: IT HAS TO! Do we have the resources to right ALL the wrongs in the world? Of course not. And if we tried, you and others would cry in outrage at our "IMPERIALISM"!

Cold, man! Brrrr! And just a tad selfish, don't you think? Wow! And I thought you liberal peaceniks were supposed to be the "compassionate" among us....
 
I reread this thread with the intention of asking hiooooo how his March went. (I realize that this would be funny but annoying but I cant help myself) I wonder if he/she? has taken in these new facts and adjusted his worldview.

God Bless the Coalition and I pray for their/its guidance.
 
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