On the fundamentalism of PA traders
- Thread starter Smurfie
- Start date
i have noticed in trending markets volume is higher in direction of the trend, in choppy markets you will have irregular volume especially on the 1 min chart.. so volume can be a good indicator whether youre in a choppy or trendy market
also a pair of ma's is great to see if markets are choppy or trendy
also a pair of ma's is great to see if markets are choppy or trendy
The reasons for the attacks (its not fundamentalism) are simple:
- in the end we all realise that price/vol based direct perception is most effective.
- the only real value for indicators (once you put in the time not to need them to filter your perceptions) is to find out what others might be doing if they have a big audience (bounces at mas is perhaps the clearest example of this). Very few promoters and newbies seem to be using them in this mode.
- indicator based strategies seem to be at the base of most scams, spams and ripoffs in this industry so the indicator promoter is suspect.
So, in summary, they don't work as well as pa except in certain "perceive the public" situations and they are the tool of spammers, scammers and rip off artists. What reception do you expect for yet another enthusiastic indicator thread?
Note: I still have 1 or 2 mas on most charts because that bounce trade (with the right preceding price action) is just too good to skip. In answer to "whats the right type of ma" ... the one most people watch. And, "whats the right length" ... the one that gives you those bounce trades.
- in the end we all realise that price/vol based direct perception is most effective.
- the only real value for indicators (once you put in the time not to need them to filter your perceptions) is to find out what others might be doing if they have a big audience (bounces at mas is perhaps the clearest example of this). Very few promoters and newbies seem to be using them in this mode.
- indicator based strategies seem to be at the base of most scams, spams and ripoffs in this industry so the indicator promoter is suspect.
So, in summary, they don't work as well as pa except in certain "perceive the public" situations and they are the tool of spammers, scammers and rip off artists. What reception do you expect for yet another enthusiastic indicator thread?
Note: I still have 1 or 2 mas on most charts because that bounce trade (with the right preceding price action) is just too good to skip. In answer to "whats the right type of ma" ... the one most people watch. And, "whats the right length" ... the one that gives you those bounce trades.
Hey Kiwi
You don't know me, but you're the only person I recognise from at least four different places. Our trading paths seem to follow exactly the same trajectory, but you're two years ahead of me.
However, all these sweeping statements are what baffles me. Allow me to mark them up in turn:
____
"The reasons for the attacks (its not fundamentalism) are simple:"
Mmmkay, but why attack in the first place? No one's hampering PA trading, and a crazy RSI probably never threatened your family.
"- in the end we all realise that price/vol based direct perception is most effective."
This is the second hardcore prediction about the future in no uncertain terms in this thread alone (the first being: PA will always work) - although 'prediction' is probably too weak a term.
"- the only real value for indicators (once you put in the time not to need them to filter your perceptions) is to find out what others might be doing if they have a big audience (bounces at mas is perhaps the clearest example of this). Very few promoters and newbies seem to be using them in this mode."
This is in direct contradiction with what I do day in and day out. And many, many other people as well I assume. I'm not really ready to accept that my chart configuration, my library of charts and all my statistics are null and void and based on spurious value, because people with a bad habit of making broad, sweeping, all-encompassing statements about the present and future of trading happen to believe so.
"- indicator based strategies seem to be at the base of most scams, spams and ripoffs in this industry so the indicator promoter is suspect."
I fully agree, but in the particular thread that prompted this one, no one was selling anything.
"So, in summary, they don't work as well as pa except in certain "perceive the public" situations and they are the tool of spammers, scammers and rip off artists. What reception do you expect for yet another enthusiastic indicator thread?"
The poster asked about good periodicity for standard indicators for divergence plays. Nobody expected enthusiastic reception, but being able to discuss it without all the comments about how indicators don't work should be an option.
"Note: I still have 1 or 2 mas on most charts because that bounce trade (with the right preceding price action) is just too good to skip. In answer to "whats the right type of ma" ... the one most people watch. And, "whats the right length" ... the one that gives you those bounce trades."
I would say the one that makes sense to you and that gives you the chart lay-out you prefer and highlights recurring patterns you're comfortable trading and developing.
____
Re-reading this, I sound like an angry old man (or an offended school-girl; pick your image). All comments are made in good spirit and with no disrespect. I hope you will receive them as such.
Good trading to all,
Smurf
You don't know me, but you're the only person I recognise from at least four different places. Our trading paths seem to follow exactly the same trajectory, but you're two years ahead of me.
However, all these sweeping statements are what baffles me. Allow me to mark them up in turn:
____
"The reasons for the attacks (its not fundamentalism) are simple:"
Mmmkay, but why attack in the first place? No one's hampering PA trading, and a crazy RSI probably never threatened your family.
"- in the end we all realise that price/vol based direct perception is most effective."
This is the second hardcore prediction about the future in no uncertain terms in this thread alone (the first being: PA will always work) - although 'prediction' is probably too weak a term.
"- the only real value for indicators (once you put in the time not to need them to filter your perceptions) is to find out what others might be doing if they have a big audience (bounces at mas is perhaps the clearest example of this). Very few promoters and newbies seem to be using them in this mode."
This is in direct contradiction with what I do day in and day out. And many, many other people as well I assume. I'm not really ready to accept that my chart configuration, my library of charts and all my statistics are null and void and based on spurious value, because people with a bad habit of making broad, sweeping, all-encompassing statements about the present and future of trading happen to believe so.
"- indicator based strategies seem to be at the base of most scams, spams and ripoffs in this industry so the indicator promoter is suspect."
I fully agree, but in the particular thread that prompted this one, no one was selling anything.
"So, in summary, they don't work as well as pa except in certain "perceive the public" situations and they are the tool of spammers, scammers and rip off artists. What reception do you expect for yet another enthusiastic indicator thread?"
The poster asked about good periodicity for standard indicators for divergence plays. Nobody expected enthusiastic reception, but being able to discuss it without all the comments about how indicators don't work should be an option.
"Note: I still have 1 or 2 mas on most charts because that bounce trade (with the right preceding price action) is just too good to skip. In answer to "whats the right type of ma" ... the one most people watch. And, "whats the right length" ... the one that gives you those bounce trades."
I would say the one that makes sense to you and that gives you the chart lay-out you prefer and highlights recurring patterns you're comfortable trading and developing.
____
Re-reading this, I sound like an angry old man (or an offended school-girl; pick your image). All comments are made in good spirit and with no disrespect. I hope you will receive them as such.
Good trading to all,
Smurf
If I am correct (and I will only be correct for some) then it will be graded anyway so different people will respond to different extents.
Elite trader is really a sandbox anyway. Somewhere that people come to thro a bit of shit at each other. Contrast my behaviour here with my behaviour at T2W or TradersLaboratory. This place is just fun. Find an idiot. Hit him. Kick him if he offers the chance.
I passionately hate spammers and scammers so tend to attack them. I don't tend to attack those who sensibly or foolishly use indicators.
An example would be forexfactory where the indicator foolishness is fully developed but I'm pretty sure I've just watched it with amusement. It does suggest that forex should be the easiest market of all to trade ... I would just miss the speed of index futures and the extra clue that volume provides from time to time.
If I had an indicator question I'd tend to take it somewhere it was likely to be well received. Not here
Elite trader is really a sandbox anyway. Somewhere that people come to thro a bit of shit at each other. Contrast my behaviour here with my behaviour at T2W or TradersLaboratory. This place is just fun. Find an idiot. Hit him. Kick him if he offers the chance.
I passionately hate spammers and scammers so tend to attack them. I don't tend to attack those who sensibly or foolishly use indicators.
An example would be forexfactory where the indicator foolishness is fully developed but I'm pretty sure I've just watched it with amusement. It does suggest that forex should be the easiest market of all to trade ... I would just miss the speed of index futures and the extra clue that volume provides from time to time.
If I had an indicator question I'd tend to take it somewhere it was likely to be well received. Not here
Rather an odd comment to make in a forum where more Posters agree on the need for self control and discipline than perhaps any other topic.
On the subject of TL and T2W....
Certainly I agree the style of postings are somewhat different to ET.
However I still see the same problem being diffused, albeit in slightly different text and manner on those sites as it is here on ET.
And that is .....
"what is causing price to move and how can I take this knowledge and use it to my advantage."
We must never allow our minds to stray from the task at hand.
regards
f9
Forex Factory certainly is a bonanza of indicators and EA construction. I don't know if anybody is profitable except the ones that get a following and start subscription services or sell EAs. Most of it is bad, some of it is bizarre (like the thread with two completely different indicators with different scales overlaid in the same window pane and ... yes, you guessed it ... you trade the crosses), but here and there are some great ideas.
In any case, the tone and atmosphere is friendly and generous. It's my impression that it's a little different here. At FF what always goes wrong is that whenever someone seems to be on to something, rather than discussing what phenomenon is at work, how to recognise low-probability set-ups from high-probability set-ups, how to fine-tune it and go from there - in short, what we may learn from the story the particular chart configuration is telling us - a host of people will attempt to add their favourite indicator for "improvement" and then the EA crowd strikes and all talk turns to making the EAs work.
Then there was the crazy Grand Mufti of WMAs, who made interested traders change their profile to include a personal oath to him. suddenly people's profiles started reading (changing his name to X for anonymity) "I follow X method, I am X trader." Pompous and clumsy and a little disturbing. And there was the Star Wars guru whose method was molded over the movie titles and people called him Master and refered to themselves as padawans. He advocated 10 pip profit stops in the Eur/Usd 4-hour! I really hope the Force is still with him. He left when a few traders had had enough of the Master-apprentice igginess and didn't attempt to hide it.
Man, I sincerely love that place
Smurf
In any case, the tone and atmosphere is friendly and generous. It's my impression that it's a little different here. At FF what always goes wrong is that whenever someone seems to be on to something, rather than discussing what phenomenon is at work, how to recognise low-probability set-ups from high-probability set-ups, how to fine-tune it and go from there - in short, what we may learn from the story the particular chart configuration is telling us - a host of people will attempt to add their favourite indicator for "improvement" and then the EA crowd strikes and all talk turns to making the EAs work.
Then there was the crazy Grand Mufti of WMAs, who made interested traders change their profile to include a personal oath to him. suddenly people's profiles started reading (changing his name to X for anonymity) "I follow X method, I am X trader." Pompous and clumsy and a little disturbing. And there was the Star Wars guru whose method was molded over the movie titles and people called him Master and refered to themselves as padawans. He advocated 10 pip profit stops in the Eur/Usd 4-hour! I really hope the Force is still with him. He left when a few traders had had enough of the Master-apprentice igginess and didn't attempt to hide it.
Man, I sincerely love that place
Smurf
Anek, you use indicators so how can you post such an anti-indicator user post?
See Shakira's last paragraph in this post dated 11-16-08 06:57 AM on this page:
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2179184#post2179184