On 10-case geometry and beyond

[NeedToLearn]

I've been reading fail safe bands again and have been contemplating about this sentence,
"* on ANY BAR - this means 'P2' or 'after P2' is not a 'kill'." The way I interpreted this is after P2, FS bands are no-longer active until we get an EE to start over. In addition, even if the bar looks like it has a IBGS, P2 is still a P2 unless we get an EE on the bar immediately. The reason why is because FS is indicating that BM and RTL is supposed to mark sentiment and crossing those boundaries will "kill" sentiment until P2 is made, at which point it may or may not traverse back to point 3 (T2P,T2F, or other EE to start over in whichever direction). It's personally making my chart at least a bit smoother with fewer FS events to worry about. Though whether my interpretation is correct or not is uncertain, I'll continue doing my due diligence until it is more clear.

 

[Sprout]

I've been reading fail safe bands again and have been contemplating about this sentence,
"* on ANY BAR - this means 'P2' or 'after P2' is not a 'kill'." The way I interpreted this is after P2, FS bands are no-longer active until we get an EE to start over. In addition, even if the bar looks like it has a IBGS, P2 is still a P2 unless we get an EE on the bar immediately. The reason why is because FS is indicating that BM and RTL is supposed to mark sentiment and crossing those boundaries will "kill" sentiment until P2 is made, at which point it may or may not traverse back to point 3 (T2P,T2F, or other EE to start over in whichever direction). It's personally making my chart at least a bit smoother with fewer FS events to worry about. Though whether my interpretation is correct or not is uncertain, I'll continue doing my due diligence until it is more clear.

Do you have a reference for the sentence of contemplation?

 

[NeedToLearn]

Do you have a reference for the sentence of contemplation?

For example, the below snippet from 12.17. Bars 37 to bar 42. Bar 40 could have been a BO,T1 or the sort if previous bar wasn't a P2 for me but since P2 came before it, I waited further for another EE (Plus it seemed like it was just looking for Pt.3 on the trading fractal) which I got on bar 42.

From bar 43 to 48, I just left the station because laterals are still too confusing for me.

 

[tiddlywinks]

Just trying to help, not confuse, but I understand and apologize if the latter...

Yes, ANY BAR means ANY BAR. That is the purpose of FAIL-SAFE! I don't have a link handy to the requirements for BOT1, but I recall something along the lines of a "particularly" tone, as opposed to a mandate regarding an EXISTING P2... It's left to traders interpretation of price(action) as it relates to volume. IOW, the BOT1 P2 requirement may or may not be applicable, but is preferred and is optimal, when possible... from my recollection.

Lets get granular... Context is Down container (dominant-red)

Bar 40 is SYM + not-UL ... appropriately annotated as Wait. SQUISH!!
Bar 39 low is your pt2, and Bar 41 high (not bar 42) is your pt3. NB: dealing with segments.
Bar 42 appropriately annotated as Bc. Potentially FTT of the segment too! Once pt3 has been identified, FTT occurs on IV.
Bar 43... Bar 42 is NOT FTT. New segment begins...P1.

Bar 47... Disagree with Kill-AG/P2 annotation. It is P1 following a P2, inside the lat, so it is a sub or sub sub fractal... the previous P2 negates the Ag possibility. Further there was no VE nor a BO, and the lat is still in force. Ag/Kill Ag/P2 is not correct.

At this point Bars 48 and beyond need debrief/correction.

Something I've learned... if you apply the RULES for creation of points you will better see (and make use of) the geometry created through RDBMS. IBGS becomes easier to spot real-time as well.

HTH

 

[NeedToLearn]

Just trying to help, not confuse, but I understand and apologize if the latter...

Yes, ANY BAR means ANY BAR. That is the purpose of FAIL-SAFE! I don't have a link handy to the requirements for BOT1, but I recall something along the lines of a "particularly" tone, as opposed to a mandate regarding an EXISTING P2... It's left to traders interpretation of price(action) as it relates to volume. IOW, the BOT1 P2 requirement may or may not be applicable, but is preferred and is optimal, when possible... from my recollection.

Lets get granular... Context is Down container (dominant-red)

Bar 40 is SYM + not-UL ... appropriately annotated as Wait. SQUISH!!
Bar 39 low is your pt2, and Bar 41 high (not bar 42) is your pt3. NB: dealing with segments.
Bar 42 appropriately annotated as Bc. Potentially FTT of the segment too! Once pt3 has been identified, FTT occurs on IV.
Bar 43... Bar 42 is NOT FTT. New segment begins...P1.

Bar 47... Disagree with Kill-AG/P2 annotation. It is P1 following a P2, inside the lat, so it is a sub or sub sub fractal... the previous P2 negates the Ag possibility. Further there was no VE nor a BO, and the lat is still in force. Ag/Kill Ag/P2 is not correct.

At this point Bars 48 and beyond need debrief/correction.

Something I've learned... if you apply the RULES for creation of points you will better see (and make use of) the geometry created through RDBMS. IBGS becomes easier to spot real-time as well.

HTH

Actually, for that matter on failsafe, I realized I read it in the wrong context. It states "P2 or after P2 is NOT a kill." So indeed, it is in the context of any bar within the segment and FS can happen anywhere.

Got a question for you actually, so if bar 47 is indeed a P1 then bar 48 would be a T1, bar 49 it will simply be either BM reverse or Af HVBO of lateral isn't it? Therefore, it will be a P1 either way.

 

[tiddlywinks]

Got a question for you actually, so if bar 47 is indeed a P1 then bar 48 would be a T1, bar 49 it will simply be either BM reverse or Af HVBO of lateral isn't it? Therefore, it will be a P1 either way.

Bar 48 is T1 and also ended the Lat.
Bar 49 is BMRV/P1 ... Bar 47 P1 is negated.

This is one case where BOT1 *could* have been applied as the bar(49) was forming.

Something to hone in on are the rules for ending a Lat.
Jack and Spyder had different rules. You have to decide which works for you.

Using RDBMS I use Jacks rule... one CLOSE outside the lat boundary.
Spyder methods uses 2 CLOSES with exceptions that require 3 CLOSES outside.

Jacks method is sooo much easier, AND since using RDBMS is far more appropriate (and accurate) IMO.

 

[Simples]

It's heartening to see everyone on board, parking their egos, sharing ahas and generally getting comfy in the groove.
Seems I need another HARD RESET in order to get onto the same train of thoughts!
Never too late for anyone!

 

[tiddlywinks]

Never too late for anyone!

Not only is it never too late, you can start anywhere!

 

[Sprout]

For example, the below snippet from 12.17. Bars 37 to bar 42. Bar 40 could have been a BO,T1 or the sort if previous bar wasn't a P2 for me but since P2 came before it, I waited further for another EE (Plus it seemed like it was just looking for Pt.3 on the trading fractal) which I got on bar 42.

From bar 43 to 48, I just left the station because laterals are still too confusing for me.

Just commenting on from Bar44;

If one ID's Bar44 as a BM,rev, then a BM would be placed at it's low.
Bar45 as a Sym is bar 2 wait, Bar46 is UL and...

From here there are two distinct 'operating points' one could use. Since the market is fractal, they will address and define distinct containers.

The first is the more formal one that is explicitly outlined in previous posts - that if bar 2&3's H&L are within the first bar's H&L then a lateral is defined. With this definition BO,T1's are not used within a lateral only BM,rev's are ID'd. Therefore Bar46 is still UL and T1, Bar47 is Lat4 but not activating Retro, yet Lateral is defined and all bars are measured except Lat2. Bar48 would be the BO of the lateral and a BM is placed at it's High. Bar49 is P1 repeat and Bar50 PP1 since there was acceleration present from the first P1.
Using this definition, it's helpful to think of price movement within a lateral as similar to a faster timescale's bar's price movement being encapsulated (squished) within the higher timeframe's bar. ie. 6-5m bar's composing a 30m.

The above works well in low volatility environments but if one is experiencing trend change in laterals frequently and wants to capture more of the price moves within a lateral then the following would be helpful.

The second 'operating point' is one that is not explicitly outlined in the literature and track's faster fractals. It uses BO,T1's within a lateral. It uses pt3 of a price case as an implicit T1. Even though a bar is a wait and not measured, it is still a price case of Sym. As a price case, it has all three points of price.
With this 'operating point' bar46 is a BO,T1 and BM is place at it's high. Bar47 is P1 repeat and Bar48 is a T1 on volume of this smaller fractal and even though it's an XB compared to the prior bar, it's close is still below the BM of bar46 keeping the short trend segment valid. As such then bar50 is an Ag hvbo as an EE to this volume sequence.


The beauty of a complete system is that as long as one understands the principals of the system, then the output produces consistent results as long as one consistently applies the variables of 'operating points' one is exploring and experimenting with.

 

[NeedToLearn]

Found something about laterals by Jack.

https://www.elitetrader.com/et/thre...nivasa-ramanujan-in-mathematics.256404/page-6


1. Determine when the FI gets frightened in the course of a lateral.

2. Do the test procedure bar-by-bar from bar 1 of the lateral using the bar 1 volume name as the beginning of the retro.

3. when BO of the lateral occurs, go back to the MADA routine of using the volume test procedure with the gates and kills for permission to measure from price as usual.

To reduce the above vagueness in my explanation and to reduce your having to work pretty hard for a while, I will give you the answers you need below.

1. Lat7 is where you stop coding lateral permission kills and gates. At lat7 the FI bots and algo's are screwed up.

2a. Put in a kill on bar-by-bar forward volume test procedures. Kill the kill with the lat BO code.

2b. Go to the bar # of lat3 and subratct 2 to get the lat1 bar #.

2c. On lat2 bar# do the volume three part test procedure (with the "permission still killed" so the test is just done per MADA. Log the event name.

2d. Keep repeating 2c until a BO of lat occurs.

2e. When you get to the lat7 bar (in less than 300 seconds, I hope) assure that you are on the correct side of the market (this means take a behavioral action if necessary (you make a little money)). I annotate in green during this time.

3. On BO of lat, kill the retro, kill the permission kill. Return to MADA on a bar-by-bar basis.