On 10-case geometry and beyond

Market System of Operation
https://www.elitetrader.com/et/threads/market-system-of-operation.280654/page-6#post-3917844

I'm getting my butt,...
https://www.elitetrader.com/et/thre...-on-a-daily-basis.275733/page-16#post-3829329



It's easier to illustrate on a log.

Let's use the example of a trend with 4 price bars - P1, T1, T1, P2. First bar is a high volatility bar and can be measured. 2nd and 3rd bar's are IB's with decr vol, therefore "wait" calling forth a Lateral ID. At this declaration (Lat3), there is no longer a wait to measure bars as long as the Lateral is valid.

So at this point in the log, there are three rows, the first row has the P1, the next rows have "wait" in the Event column and a line drawn through the VTP cells. Bar4 as it is an IB to the 1st bar of the Lateral is measurable. The fact that it's the fourth bar AND an IB calls forth "retro". To do retro, you are also doing rev chron. Rev chron is cycling through the volume elements that have already presented themselves in reverse chronological order, looking for a repeat. Consider how PP!'s are built.

On the log, the Event Column gets the position in the Lateral the bar occupies. So in the above case, bar2 gets a "2" in the Event Column and a line strike through the VTP cells. Bar3 gets a "3" in the Event Column and the same strike through line on it's row. Bar4 qualifies as "retro" and one goes back to start at bar2 and measure, then bar3 and measure, now with those two measurements in place, the "retro" bar can get a valid ID. If bar4 is not an IB relative to bar1 then it get's measured but without bar2 and bar3's ID since they are a wait.

In this example if bar4 was a retro and a P2>P1 as true then it's an Ae EE. If bar4 was not a retro then it's ID would be a repeat of P1 and no EE is present.

btw, degapping is required for the above. A tick is a tick and sometimes makes all the difference.


HTH

View attachment 185246

If bar 4 is P2 but held inside P1 then it's like having a smaller fractal with bars 2 and 3 within the lateral boundary?

If bar 4 sticks out like it did here but seems to have shifted gaussian it provides an ending event to the previous trend (traverse)?

I'm not sure if I'm understanding it right. This is the first time hearing anythig about rev chron and retro for me lol
 
I'm still confused with Rev Chron however. It is a Volume Test, not specific to a lat formation. I'm not seeing the difference between Rev Chron and Repeat. Rev Chron, volume testing of ANY measurable that is NOT a repeat, I don't know If I understand what to do.

Rev chron is the process of checking for a Repeat. The process of checking each prior cell in the VTP for a "repeat" is rev chron. That's what the arrows pointing right to left as superscript in cell above "T" or "F" are for. Starting at P2 as false, T1 as false, P1 as false, the superscript arrow then makes a counterclockwise loop around the "collected" falses, passes underneath and points to "next" in the OOE which in this case is T2P as true.



Using your 4-bar example, P1, T1, T1, P2.... Bar 2 has DV in relation to bar 1. It is not a repeat of bar 1, a P1. P1 being the start of a sequence, there is nothing else to Rev Chron, Bar 2 is ID'd as T1 and the volume test of bar 2 stops.

Yes, to make it clearer let this example NOT be a lateral.

At rev chron on the bar2, one marks on the current row, column P1 a "F" with a left to right superscript arrow. Since this is "F", the arrow loops around ccw and points to the next cell which is a T1 column and therefore gets a "T". Since we've progressed the trend to a T1, P1 is gated with an "X" in the cell.

At rev chron on bar3, one marks on the current row, column T1 a "T" with a left to right superscript arrow.

At rev chron on bar4, one marks on the current row, column T1 a "F" with a left to right superscript arrow at cell T1. Since this is a T1, and a T1 has presented itself earlier, then the P1 cell gets an "X". It's enough to remind us that a P1 does not come after a T1. We have to get to P2 before P1 can occur again.

Bar4 on the log, would look like P1 "X", T1 "F", P2 "T". The T1 cell would have a ccw arrow around the "F" and the arrow would point to the "T" in cell P2 as a gesture for "next".





Bar 3, has equal or DV in relation to bar 2, a T1. There is no P2 as of yet, so a repeat (NEW) T1 is allowed, bar 3 is ID'd as T1, the volume test for bar 3 stops. Bar 4, has IV in relation to bar 3. With IV, it cannot be a repeat of T1. Begin Rev Chron... Since bar 2 is also a T1 and it has been determined that bar 4 can not be a repeat T1, Rev Chron moves to bar 1, a P1. P1 is killed, suppressed, not allowed, after a T1. Bar 4 is ID'd as P2 and the volume test of bar 4 stops. Is this correct??

Yes.

bar1 P1 "T"
bar2 P1 "F", T1 "T"
bar3 P1 " ", T1 "T"
bar4 P1 "X", T1 "F", P2 "T"

if bar5 is a T2P, then the next line in the log;
P1 "F", T1 "F", P2 "F", T2P "T"

If bar5 is a P2, then;
P1 " ", T1 " ", P2 "T"

If bar5 is greater than the first P1, then;
P1 "T", T1 "F", P2 "F"



RDBMS gets validated when we assign P1's. Assigning P1's is where this stuff really shines.

HTH

Comments within quoted text,...
 
If bar 4 is P2 but held inside P1 then it's like having a smaller fractal with bars 2 and 3 within the lateral boundary?

If bar 4 sticks out like it did here but seems to have shifted gaussian it provides an ending event to the previous trend (traverse)?

I'm not sure if I'm understanding it right. This is the first time hearing anythig about rev chron and retro for me lol


Yes.

Not sure what you are referring to about bar4.

Jack methods are encapsulated in PVT, SCT, SSR and RDBMS. Each have concepts that build upon each other. RDBMS was the last iterative refinement of his methods which defined volume in exact terms. RDBMS is also known as JHM 2.0. Rev chron and retro are part of the VTP which is the core of his RDBMS implementation. The VTP requires degapping (mentally or with software) and logging bar-by-bar.

By doing drills and focusing on annotating price tapes/traverses/channels and the OOE, you are building the skills and toolset required to understand what Jack was all about.
 
Can you point me to the right documents or posts regarding JHM 2.0? I'd like to have the basic idea of what they are all about so when I do drills I have something to build on. I thought I feel like I'm missing something, although I've been reading SCTlearning from scratch thread and market system of operation thread and read something about RDBMS in there somewhere.

Bar 4 I was just relating to the same example you were providing.
 
The VTP requires degapping (mentally or with software)

@Sprout:

I appreciate your knowledge of JHM, but "requires degapping"is NOT true, and should not be presented as such.

1) Jack referred to (time-based) bars as "bundles of data". The "bundles" idea can be applied to ANY OHLCV chart, time-based or not.

2) Jack did not believe TIME to be a factor of market operation. Yet, in many areas Jack makes reference to clock time as periods when specific events or occurrences tend to occur. If clock time periods can be recognized, then by default, duration of those periods is recognized. Time is, or it isn't a variable. Jack has presented time as a dichotomy, both sides of which can not be simultaneously true.

3) In an effort to create "continuous" bundles, bar-by-bar degapping was introduced. Degapping bar-by-bar does create a more continuous look at bundles, AND/BUT time is still present within the bundle. A 5 minute bar is a 5 minute bar, regardless if OHLCV variables have been altered or not. Degapping perverts the Y-axis of a standard price pane, making price non-usable for trading (what dependent variable?), while maintaining the X-axis. And since volume is not altered by degapping (which it should be to account for volume created by the price alteration(if any) up or down), the independent variable (along the X-axis) is not reflective of the matching price pane bar.

Non-time-based charts remove the time element completely. Why did Jack choose time-based? And then adulterate the Y-axis? Jack wanted to trade with volume alone. In his attempts, he could ALMOST trade with volume alone. I leave the reader to decide the meaning of ALMOST in that context.

Back to trading.
 
While running:
- Hit "SpaceBar" time to time, to switch between "Global Channels" and "Today Channels".
- Pay attention to Volume vs Volume Pace Levels (i.e Volume Ranking).
No need to do anything, just watch.
Run as many time same day until you "Get It".
When you feel you "Get it", run again and place simulated trades as day unfolds.


I suppose “No need to do anything” means do not simtrade on the first stage but monitor and differentiate continuation VS change

although I didn't "get it" by now, my obsevations are:

1. better to monitor 2 identical charts 5min ES RTH, first chart with global channels, the second with intraday channels. No need to hit spacebar and lose focus.
2. try to grasp point 3's of traverses and channels as soon as possible and consider that points as points of continuation, and therefore points of stepping in market.
3. try to grasp FTT’s of traverses and channels appearing as peaking volume bars and consider that points as potential change. Therefore do not reverse but exit the trade if in position.

Am I on the right track?

Go back to market replay drill…
 
@Sprout:

I appreciate your knowledge of JHM, but "requires degapping"is NOT true, and should not be presented as such.

1) Jack referred to (time-based) bars as "bundles of data". The "bundles" idea can be applied to ANY OHLCV chart, time-based or not.

2) Jack did not believe TIME to be a factor of market operation. Yet, in many areas Jack makes reference to clock time as periods when specific events or occurrences tend to occur. If clock time periods can be recognized, then by default, duration of those periods is recognized. Time is, or it isn't a variable. Jack has presented time as a dichotomy, both sides of which can not be simultaneously true.

3) In an effort to create "continuous" bundles, bar-by-bar degapping was introduced. Degapping bar-by-bar does create a more continuous look at bundles, AND/BUT time is still present within the bundle. A 5 minute bar is a 5 minute bar, regardless if OHLCV variables have been altered or not. Degapping perverts the Y-axis of a standard price pane, making price non-usable for trading (what dependent variable?), while maintaining the X-axis. And since volume is not altered by degapping (which it should be to account for volume created by the price alteration(if any) up or down), the independent variable (along the X-axis) is not reflective of the matching price pane bar.

Non-time-based charts remove the time element completely. Why did Jack choose time-based? And then adulterate the Y-axis? Jack wanted to trade with volume alone. In his attempts, he could ALMOST trade with volume alone. I leave the reader to decide the meaning of ALMOST in that context.

Back to trading.

Doesn't the time based chart give a better organization of volume "pace" compared to say constant volume bars? For example, peaks and troughs by definition sort of needs time based interpretation to locate. Plus time based chart also tells you the money velocity that Jack mentions by ranking volume levels at the moment until pace changes with ve or something.
 
@Sprout:

I appreciate your knowledge of JHM, but "requires degapping"is NOT true, and should not be presented as such.

1) Jack referred to (time-based) bars as "bundles of data". The "bundles" idea can be applied to ANY OHLCV chart, time-based or not.

2) Jack did not believe TIME to be a factor of market operation. Yet, in many areas Jack makes reference to clock time as periods when specific events or occurrences tend to occur. If clock time periods can be recognized, then by default, duration of those periods is recognized. Time is, or it isn't a variable. Jack has presented time as a dichotomy, both sides of which can not be simultaneously true.

3) In an effort to create "continuous" bundles, bar-by-bar degapping was introduced. Degapping bar-by-bar does create a more continuous look at bundles, AND/BUT time is still present within the bundle. A 5 minute bar is a 5 minute bar, regardless if OHLCV variables have been altered or not. Degapping perverts the Y-axis of a standard price pane, making price non-usable for trading (what dependent variable?), while maintaining the X-axis. And since volume is not altered by degapping (which it should be to account for volume created by the price alteration(if any) up or down), the independent variable (along the X-axis) is not reflective of the matching price pane bar.

Non-time-based charts remove the time element completely. Why did Jack choose time-based? And then adulterate the Y-axis? Jack wanted to trade with volume alone. In his attempts, he could ALMOST trade with volume alone. I leave the reader to decide the meaning of ALMOST in that context.

Back to trading.


I appreciate the discussion, follow your logic and would agree with you (pvt, sct). However for RDBMS:

1) I've tested the concept and logged bars both ways to understand the difference. My statement comes from my own due diligence and verification and would encourage anyone to do the same.

2) Jack, in his own words
 
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Can you point me to the right documents or posts regarding JHM 2.0? I'd like to have the basic idea of what they are all about so when I do drills I have something to build on. I thought I feel like I'm missing something, although I've been reading SCTlearning from scratch thread and market system of operation thread and read something about RDBMS in there somewhere.

Bar 4 I was just relating to the same example you were providing.


lol, in re-reading Jack, I'm always experiencing "how did I miss that?" You know you better than anyone. For me my progress with the material started when I printed out threads and associated charts, put them in separate 3-ring binders and marked up the pages with my understanding of the concepts with personal notes. In wasn't the volume of content that made the difference, it is the diligent processing and integration of the concepts. Jack describes it as building a resource.

For me, finding keywords, combination of keywords and dates supported relevant search results. Building a map is super useful. The next ramp up in understanding was doing the 20days to expert drill by actively logging bar-by-bar. The logging makes such a fundamental difference, it is the reason why Jack promoted it so much. Making different logs to explore the relationship between variables also supports differentiation. The heart of MADA is observation combined with logic and deduction coupled with decision and action on every bar. It's a mental gym.

As for bar4, a posted chart would make your question clearer.
 
Doesn't the time based chart give a better organization of volume "pace" compared to say constant volume bars? For example, peaks and troughs by definition sort of needs time based interpretation to locate. Plus time based chart also tells you the money velocity that Jack mentions by ranking volume levels at the moment until pace changes with ve or something.


Jack discusses CVB's.
 
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