Old edges

[cyoungmark]

I think this could be really useful in helping new traders cut their learning curve. It's late, so sorry if this doesn't make sense.

What are some old, unprofitable, or unusable edges that the market has made ineffective? It would be great if you could share stories.

I'm thinking maybe if old edges are put out there, new traders could try and create a new edge around that. Get ideas flowing and get on the right track.

 

[kut2k2]

Quote from cyoungmark:

I think this could be really useful in helping new traders cut their learning curve. It's late, so sorry if this doesn't make sense.

What are some old, unprofitable, or unusable edges that the market has made ineffective? It would be great if you could share stories.

I'm thinking maybe if old edges are put out there, new traders could try and create a new edge around that. Get ideas flowing and get on the right track.

The Turtle strategy is possibly the most famous of these.

 

[HATEtheRisk]

Quote from kut2k2:

The Turtle strategy is possibly the most famous of these.

the turtle strategies still work today and will work forever, just not all the time. because the markets are not driven by that turtles alone, that would be too easy. ---my thoughts---

but if you look on the charts you can see that the turtles strategies still are very good working........

 

[TraDaToR]

This should be an interesting thread if people starts to share. As long as the edge is gone, I think it shouldn't be a problem.

- Around 2008, on Cotton NYBOT, sometimes you had an algo buying/selling around ask/bid and another algo selling /buying at midpoint. So for example, you just waited with a buy order at bid, got filled , then placed a sell order at midpoint and got filled instantly. This was lasting until one of the algo had filled enough size. It was sometimes lasting 30 seconds which is enough to make like 20 RTs.

- Last year or so, on Orange Juice which is really illiquid and where 10 lots can be considered "size", there was someone coming in displaying sizes like 400. Nazzdack was calling him Travis Tropicana in one thread. At first you thought it was ( dangerous )spoofing but no. He wanted to fill it, so he waited 5 minutes at bid, got filled 10 lots, updated his bid 10 ticks higher, got filled 10 lots, updated 20 ticks higher, got filled...He was moving the markets at least 50 ticks every times. You just had to buy in front of him and wait until his whole size was consumed 50 ticks higher to exit.

- In 2009, on CL in the overnight session, there was an algo that was "chasing" sizes of 100 lots and more, hitting it and even overfilling 2-3 ticks higher/lower when all the size was consumed. When you saw this kind of size around, you just had to buy 2-3 ticks lower than the size and place an exit limit order 2-3 ticks higher.

Trading is not always complicated...LOL. Those edges were working.

 

[HATEtheRisk]

Quote from TraDaToR:



- Last year or so, on Orange Juice which is really illiquid and where 10 lots can be considered "size", there was someone coming in displaying sizes like 400. Nazzdack was calling him Travis Tropicana in one thread. At first you thought it was ( dangerous )spoofing but no. He wanted to fill it, so he waited 5 minutes at bid, got filled 10 lots, updated his bid 10 ticks higher, got filled 10 lots, updated 20 ticks higher, got filled...He was moving the markets at least 50 ticks every times. You just had to buy in front of him and wait until his whole size was consumed 50 ticks higher to exit.

-

oh that was me...tropicana...hahahaha......

but who made more money with the orange juicy, you with your scalping or i with my huge postion, price went after my order was filled up to sky for 1 monthy, dosnt it. check the charts....

 

[TraDaToR]

I don't remember but I doubt a player that dumb and obvious in his order placement can make money in the long run. For what I remember, once he was done, the price was then retracing to reach equilibrium so I think he had unrealized losses right after entering. It smelled institution entering position for a client.

 

[HATEtheRisk]

Quote from TraDaToR:

I don't remember but I doubt a player that dumb and obvious in his order placement can make money in the long run. For what I remember, once he was done, the price was then retracing to reach equilibrium so I think he had unrealized losses right after entering. It smelled institution entering position for a client.

probably yes.

but if i wanna enter a big position in a low liquidity market, i must do it step by step. How else could it be done, when there is to less volume ?

Of course everyone who have level2 sees that.....

 

[HATEtheRisk]

Quote from TraDaToR:

I don't remember but I doubt a player that dumb and obvious in his order placement can make money in the long run. For what I remember, once he was done, the price was then retracing to reach equilibrium so I think he had unrealized losses right after entering. It smelled institution entering position for a client.

i think you are wrong in this case.

maybe it is very different in high liquid VS low volume market.
like FX Majors VS orange juice or coffee.....

But of course the institutional traders go in with huge positions, maybe they need one day just for entering the market and then they hold it for 1 month, and sell it step by step back in 2-3 days, or close it step by step within 1 month....

Thats how the big traders trade, there is no other way, to trade profitable and do not affect the market too much with your action.

dont you think ? whats your opinion ?
I am very interested in huge position trading and how the big players do it, thats really the King Class of trading...

 

[kut2k2]

Quote from HATEtheRisk:

the turtle strategies still work today and will work forever, just not all the time. because the markets are not driven by that turtles alone, that would be too easy. ---my thoughts---

but if you look on the charts you can see that the turtles strategies still are very good working........

If the turtle strategy is so great, why isn't everybody using it and getting rich? It's fully disclosed and free, what's stopping this great strategy from being exploited everywhere? Are you using it as your strategy?

 

[HATEtheRisk]

Quote from kut2k2:

If the turtle strategy is so great, why isn't everybody using it and getting rich? It's fully disclosed and free, what's stopping this great strategy from being exploited everywhere? Are you using it as your strategy?

No i didnt wanna say that its working 100%. But i can see it in the charts, but how i said it works not all the time, bcuz i think the strategy is bullshit.

And, no i dont trade them i have created my own strategies, without the ideas of any book or mentor - all made by my self -- and they work very well, but they are not easy it needs a lot work and focus, well its just hard work.