Steven Weinberg: "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Oil tanks to 30's and fighting breaks out...that's RELIGULOUS!
- Thread starter rc5781
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So why not just be a humanist with the same beliefs in the good old fashioned values which do not need religion for their justification, simply human decency, respect, and compassion for your fellow human? There are plenty of far more valid and rational secular humanist reasons why abortions are abhorrent along with a host of other values that religions like to imagine they monopolize. Just as religions come in all shapes and sizes do not imagine that all rational thinkers reject the values embraced by Christians and other religions. It is the irrational belief used by religions to justify the values they embrace that is rejected not the values themselves and this is an important distinction. While religion spoon feeds its morality, the secular person needs to work a bit harder to put together a workable and consistent moral compass but what I have found is that often those that do the work end up embracing the positive values commonly taught by many religions.
I have a similar upbringing, though in the Anglican system (I went to high school in the precinct of a Cathedral that seats an Archbishop), and was for much of my life a devout Christian because of parental and then societal socialization. However being both a skeptic and someone who notices inconsistencies I decided that things were not adding up and I started to educate myself about religion. As I started reading about the history of religion and how Christianity, and all religions, for that matter, are simply pilfered stories from ancient times, and pagan religions and rituals dressed up anew the fog started to clear and I started thinking rationally.
Is there a God, and if there is one what are his expectations for us and the way in which we conduct ourselves? No one knows is the honest answer. What we can know is that the Judeo Christian construct and philosophy is man made and an evolution of whole unchristian paganism. Logic can teach us that if there is a God, he is either not omniscient, not all powerful, not benevolent nor loving in the way most would interpret such words, or not concerned with us and our daily lives at all. For a rational person to accept "He works in mysterious ways" as a way to circumvent the chasm that is religion's lack of logic is simply irrational when arriving at one's perspective on reality. Such suspension of logic and empiricism puts those with a belief in the Great Unicorn in the sky on equal footing with those, of ANY religious stripe, who believe in an all powerful, omniscient, benevolent God that takes an interest in humanity in a way that is meaningful to the life of each person!
I find it uncomfortable to hear otherwise intelligent people talk about their fervent religious beliefs in the same way I would feel uncomfortable listening to otherwise intelligent people talk about the earth being flat, or their belief in any other manner of fairy tales. I realize that some of our political leaders are also agnostic but are bound by pragmatism to feign religiosity but wish it were not so, most especially because it is often hard to tell the difference between true belief and political expediency in such professional liars. This is a problem that should concern all of us as those guided by beliefs that are by definition irrational cannot be counted on to see reality as it is, and I am certainly in no way limiting this to the US or to Judeo Christian politicos.
That said, respectfully wishing you a great 2009 Pabst
Great post bro. Too often in modern society if one takes a principled stand opposing abortion, gay marriage or even capital punishment (which I favor ) ones motives are impugned by secularists as being rooted in fundamentalism. I think it's safe to say one can oppose murder without relying on the Bible, Torah or Koran to reach the conclusion of respecting life.
OTOH, I worry we'll see continued abandonment of morality as a broad societal response to agnostic enlightenment. Without threat of eternal reprisal from a higher power we're too often doomed into a live for today mode. Does man choose not to sin out of goodness of heart or is he afraid of punishment?
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) ones motives are impugned by secularists as being rooted in fundamentalism. I think it's safe to say one can oppose murder without relying on the Bible, Torah or Koran to reach the conclusion of respecting life.OTOH, I worry we'll see continued abandonment of morality as a broad societal response to agnostic enlightenment. Without threat of eternal reprisal from a higher power we're too often doomed into a live for today mode. Does man choose not to sin out of goodness of heart or is he afraid of punishment?
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Quote from Mvic:
So why not just be a humanist with the same beliefs in the good old fashioned values which do not need religion for their justification, simply human decency, respect, and compassion for your fellow human? There are plenty of far more valid and rational secular humanist reasons why abortions are abhorrent along with a host of other values that religions like to imagine they monopolize. Just as religions come in all shapes and sizes do not imagine that all rational thinkers reject the values embraced by Christians and other religions. It is the irrational belief used by religions to justify the values they embrace that is rejected not the values themselves and this is an important distinction. While religion spoon feeds its morality, the secular person needs to work a bit harder to put together a workable and consistent moral compass but what I have found is that often those that do the work end up embracing the positive values commonly taught by many religions.
I have a similar upbringing, though in the Anglican system (I went to high school in the precinct of a Cathedral that seats an Archbishop), and was for much of my life a devout Christian because of parental and then societal socialization. However being both a skeptic and someone who notices inconsistencies I decided that things were not adding up and I started to educate myself about religion. As I started reading about the history of religion and how Christianity, and all religions, for that matter, are simply pilfered stories from ancient times, and pagan religions and rituals dressed up anew the fog started to clear and I started thinking rationally.
Is there a God, and if there is one what are his expectations for us and the way in which we conduct ourselves? No one knows is the honest answer. What we can know is that the Judeo Christian construct and philosophy is man made and an evolution of whole unchristian paganism. Logic can teach us that if there is a God, he is either not omniscient, not all powerful, not benevolent nor loving in the way most would interpret such words, or not concerned with us and our daily lives at all. For a rational person to accept "He works in mysterious ways" as a way to circumvent the chasm that is religion's lack of logic is simply irrational when arriving at one's perspective on reality. Such suspension of logic and empiricism puts those with a belief in the Great Unicorn in the sky on equal footing with those, of ANY religious stripe, who believe in an all powerful, omniscient, benevolent God that takes an interest in humanity in a way that is meaningful to the life of each person!
I find it uncomfortable to hear otherwise intelligent people talk about their fervent religious beliefs in the same way I would feel uncomfortable listening to otherwise intelligent people talk about the earth being flat, or their belief in any other manner of fairy tales. I realize that some of our political leaders are also agnostic but are bound by pragmatism to feign religiosity but wish it were not so, most especially because it is often hard to tell the difference between true belief and political expediency in such professional liars. This is a problem that should concern all of us as those guided by beliefs that are by definition irrational cannot be counted on to see reality as it is, and I am certainly in no way limiting this to the US or to Judeo Christian politicos.
That said, respectfully wishing you a great 2009 Pabst
well said.Quote from Mvic:
Is there a God, and if there is one what are his expectations for us and the way in which we conduct ourselves? No one knows is the honest answer. What we can know is that the Judeo Christian construct and philosophy is man made and an evolution of whole unchristian paganism. Logic can teach us that if there is a God, he is either not omniscient, not all powerful, not benevolent nor loving in the way most would interpret such words, or not concerned with us and our daily lives at all. For a rational person to accept "He works in mysterious ways" as a way to circumvent the chasm that is religion's lack of logic is simply irrational when arriving at one's perspective on reality. Such suspension of logic and empiricism puts those with a belief in the Great Unicorn in the sky on equal footing with those, of ANY religious stripe, who believe in an all powerful, omniscient, benevolent God that takes an interest in humanity in a way that is meaningful to the life of each person!
I find it uncomfortable to hear otherwise intelligent people talk about their fervent religious beliefs in the same way I would feel uncomfortable listening to otherwise intelligent people talk about the earth being flat, or their belief in any other manner of fairy tales. I realize that some of our political leaders are also agnostic but are bound by pragmatism to feign religiosity but wish it were not so, most especially because it is often hard to tell the difference between true belief and political expediency in such professional liars. This is a problem that should concern all of us as those guided by beliefs that are by definition irrational cannot be counted on to see reality as it is, and I am certainly in no way limiting this to the US or to Judeo Christian politicos.
That said, respectfully wishing you a great 2009 Pabst
Mvic - I compliment you on your reasoned analysis. I respect your conclusions.
I would perhaps come to the same conclusions - as I have certainly had the same questions.
My core difference is - I do not think the reason for injustice or unfair outcomes is that the "lord works in mysterious ways".
I suspect it is more along that lines... that God has granted man free will.
The reason was given in the Garden of Eden story. Man had a choice for the perfect existence but was not be satisfied. He wanted to be like God and make all the choices. Man wanted to be like God and make choices.
Do I expect that to make you change your mind. No.
I only bring it up to let you know that those who still believe after asking your questions take some solace in the fact that your point was just about the first issue addressed in the bible.
So at least the author of the bible was really smart. He/she/it predicted and condensed there entire history of man into an amazing short story.
I would perhaps come to the same conclusions - as I have certainly had the same questions.
My core difference is - I do not think the reason for injustice or unfair outcomes is that the "lord works in mysterious ways".
I suspect it is more along that lines... that God has granted man free will.
The reason was given in the Garden of Eden story. Man had a choice for the perfect existence but was not be satisfied. He wanted to be like God and make all the choices. Man wanted to be like God and make choices.
Do I expect that to make you change your mind. No.
I only bring it up to let you know that those who still believe after asking your questions take some solace in the fact that your point was just about the first issue addressed in the bible.
So at least the author of the bible was really smart. He/she/it predicted and condensed there entire history of man into an amazing short story.
jem. as a self proclaimed highly educated man surely you can understand that the garden of eden story is a myth. since we know that story is a myth how can you come to the conclusion that somehow man violated gods will in that garden and that is an excuse for your god to ignore evil and suffering in this world?
Note - I said - the author was pretty damn smart. MVIC's question was dealt with in the garden of eden story.
But, I do think it was pretty smart to place answers to the most difficult questions man can pose - in the Garden of Eden.
Why the suffering?
Then the story of the serpant - tempting adam and eve with the promise that they would be like Gods.
Do you know that and sex are the probably the biggest sales pitches in history.
Most eastern religions are founded on the thought - the entire new age movement.
It is the pitch behind most of the secular movements - thorugh good government and good citizenship we can evolve to garden and eden type life. utopia.
I did not say adam and eve lived 5000 years ago. I have no reason to. That number is not in the bible.
But, I do think it was pretty smart to place answers to the most difficult questions man can pose - in the Garden of Eden.
Why the suffering?
Then the story of the serpant - tempting adam and eve with the promise that they would be like Gods.
Do you know that and sex are the probably the biggest sales pitches in history.
Most eastern religions are founded on the thought - the entire new age movement.
It is the pitch behind most of the secular movements - thorugh good government and good citizenship we can evolve to garden and eden type life. utopia.
I did not say adam and eve lived 5000 years ago. I have no reason to. That number is not in the bible.
Making stupid unsupportable statements to make yourself look rational is the preferred belief of those who are still in search of their G.E.D.
I am awaiting your proof text for your statement above.
Remember, the base case is your definitive proof that God does not exist. I cannot wait for that one.