Bloomberg had on this morning a chart comparing the Nasdaq bubble and the runup in oil since Nov. '01. Oil has surpassed in percentage gains the tech bubble.
Quote from ljyoung:
... you question why ICE should be driving NYMEX.
Quote from Covertibility:
Bloomberg had on this morning a chart comparing the Nasdaq bubble and the runup in oil since Nov. '01. Oil has surpassed in percentage gains the tech bubble.
Quote from Charlie_Sheen:
To me, the "why" issue is secondary to the "how" issue. In other words, first the technical question and then the philosophical.
If you know your ICE product will be priced via the NYMEX close and the product is trading an equivalent of $1.00 over NYMEX - why would you BUY the ICE product? I think you would short it and buy the NYMEX and not really care who was holding what on the ICE.
Second - the NYMEX CEO testified that once the NYMEX started day session electronic trading in NG, the NYMEX NG and ICE NG prices were very similar most of the time. I have to imagine the same is true for crude, especially with the use of the NYMEX settlement price. So "how" would you be able to "see" that the "smart money" or "collusion money" or whatever is placing bets on the ICE?
Last, even if you could "see" who was doing what on ICE - what would it tell you? When Amaranth moved positions from NYMEX to ICE in NG, what did that tell you?
Ultimately, nothing more than a particular player has decided to make a big bet. The subsequent prices, reflected on the NYMEX, determined the outcome of the large bet. The large bet did not determine the prices on the NYMEX.
Quote from ljyoung:
The 'why' in my statement referred to the fact that given how you perceive the technicals, then 'how' can this be so. It was not a philosophical query.
I thought the CFTC had in addition to trader type also the magnitude of position holdings by major players? This transparency is not present with ICE.
I do not trade oil futures and so what I say may simply be reflective of my ignorance. The two exchanges are not separated by a wall. Traders can have positions in both. Is it not possible for ICE to influence [= run up] the NYMEX price? The effectiveness of such a strategy must have some aspect related to the size of the holding. So although the settlement may be NYMEX-based, if the ICE manipulator can salvage some acceptable percentage of the runup [whatever that might happen to be], then mission accomplished?
lj
Quote from tjymaui:
Would be interested in seeing the chart comparing the two. Tried looking for it on the Bloomberg site but couldn't find it. Could you post it here if it's still available? Thank you in advance.
Quote from Charlie_Sheen:
Let's start with the basics.
If HESS refining buys crude oil from one of ExxonMobil's West African crude fields, they will have a contract that will incorporate an average of NYMEX or IPE settlement prices, with the beginning and end of the pricing generally straddling the deemed change in possession. The periods tend to be between 10 and 20 business days.
If a large NYMEX player is maxed out on their position limit and wants to go long, he would probably do so by going long an ICE product. Let's say this player is George Soros.
The ICE price then nudges slightly over the NYMEX. Another player - who is not maxed out on the NYMEX and is set up to arb - sees this and decides to short the ICE and buy the NYMEX. We'll call him Jim Simons of Renaissance Technology. This would bring the ICE down somewhat and the NYMEX up somewhat. Let's say this happens on day "one" of the pricing period between Hess and XOM. So the physical oil price is affected a bit. However, the next day, Jim Simons liquidates. He sells off his long NYMEX side. This pushes NYMEX down somewhat and the previous day's impact on the pricing period is reversed.
First - Even if the "mission"(moving up the NYMEX) is somewhat accomplished on one day, it is likely to be reversed the next. Realistically, the "mission" is more likely "accomplished" and reversed in five or ten minute increments - resulting in no impact on the pricing of physical oil purchased by HESS in the above example.The arb battle is not perfectly effective in controlling price movement otherwise prices would never go anywhere. Prices are controlled by mechanisms outside of arbing.
Second - I am sure the number of players set up to arb away ICE / NYMEX fluctuations dwarf the number of players who have maxed out their NYMEX position limit or are so large that they don't want the NYMEX to know what they are doing. So I doubt the ICE and NYMEX products deviate very far from each other. Definitely not enough to validate a (implied by the author) $30/bbl. or $40/bbl. ICE influenced deviation from the fundamentals - whatever they may be.
Third, if you could actually "see" that Soros was buying on ICE, but Simons was selling - what would that tell you? If Brian Hunter was buying and Victor Niederhoffer was selling, what would that tell you? I agree who the "Large Speculator" is doesn't matter a whit.