Observations on the NYSE specialist.

Sanjuro · Feb 24, 2006

With you guys talking about the opening prints.

I was at a prop firm once before when the person next to me put out an limit buy order on an active NYSE stock. Within 30 secs, the specialist print it BELOW his limit buy price and then took the price up and did not fill the person.

The person told me and told X who was in charge of the office. X first looked at the tape and it was true the order was before the print below his price. X called GS to report this... X got a call back from GS and said since the order wasn't sitting there for more than 1 min, they couldn't do anything about it.

Specialist are a bunch of crooks IMO. That doesn't mean you can't make money trading NYSE if you trade with the crooks. I have made money the last 2 years trading NASDAQ. I know people who trade NYSE successfully (enveloping, pair trading) but their style is different than mine (breakout).

Good Luck!

cstu · Feb 24, 2006

Sounds like you need to get a new broker rather than GS Sanjuro. Now in regard to the crossing rule, first the broker has to be on parity with the book, meaning he needs to be there for a sale. Then he can shut out the book. A true shut-out of the book probably happens fifty times a day floorwide when we were trading in 1/8, or 1/16. Now with decimals it is probably a whole lot less.

cstu · Feb 24, 2006

Started reading this thread again. 36 pages and I don't think anyone get's it.

One little hint when talking about "orders" and size priority. The specialist can't "size" a book at any particular price. Floor brokers can. Orders that are on parity are represented by indiviual brokers. Each broker, if they are there for a sale can be considered on parity. Orders are not considered on parity,brokers are on parity. A specialist is representing one amount at each price, in time order regardless of how many orders make up the book.

I might be able to clear this up a litlle if someone would kindly give an example. It really is pretty easy.

Hamlet · Feb 24, 2006

Quote from cstu:

A specialist is representing one amount at each price, in time order regardless of how many orders make up the book.

I might be able to clear this up a litlle if someone would kindly give an example. It really is pretty easy.

It's clear to everyone except Rockford.

He refuses to accept the simple fact of Price>Time>Size... easy as ABC. I lost count of the times I've corrected him. It's simple for a child, not apparently for Rockford who says you have to be a lawyer or regulatory expert to understand and trade on the NYSE.
He has demonstrated himself to be an intellectual shrimp.

I invited him to substantiate his falsehoods, as did Mr Bright.
Of course he cannot. I expect him to soon disappear since his credibility is now zero.

reg · Feb 24, 2006

Quote from jimrockford:

I believe that Hamlet is incorrect to say that long sales generally have priority over short sales.

I believe that this is neither a NYSE rule nor a United States rule.

I believe that NYSE rules are opposite to Hamlet's assertion.

I believe that the uptick rule can bar some short sell orders from execution, when the uptick rule's price test is not met.........

Keep in mind that one's "beliefs" are purely subjective and does not always conform to reality, as is the case in this situation.
Your answers to Hamlet show how miniscule your knowledge is regarding the workings of the NYSE and how you should stop trying to project yourself as an authority on a subject matter that you actually know little about.
Also, for your peace of mind, I want to assure you that reg is neither "Hamlet" nor "size". The only thing we have in common is that we can spot bullshit when we see it.

bitrend · Feb 24, 2006

Quote from Hamlet:

It's clear to everyone except Rockford.

He refuses to accept the simple fact of Price>Time>Size... easy as ABC. I lost count of the times I've corrected him. It's simple for a child, not apparently for Rockford who says you have to be a lawyer or regulatory expert to understand and trade on the NYSE.
He has demonstrated himself to be an intellectual shrimp.

I invited him to substantiate his falsehoods, as did Mr Bright.
Of course he cannot. I expect him to soon disappear since his credibility is now zero.

We are very glad to see that the Observations on the NYSE specialist has been resolved. Now we move to another subject which is the Observations on the NYSE Rules.

I'm learning from you guys.

reg · Feb 24, 2006

Quote from bitrend:

We are very glad to see that the Observations on the NYSE specialist has been resolved. Now we move to another subject which is the Observations on the NYSE Rules. I'm learning from you guys.

Observations on jimrockford's Ignorance of the NYSE Specialist has not yet been resolved.

Avid_Consumer · Feb 25, 2006

nobody has answered my question with regard to never getting a fill when i submit a limit sell to the nyse or amex just under his offer, but always seeing him print buys at my limit price or higher when i make a better market than him on arca. literally, every single time, rather conspicuously. he appears to own nearly all the liquidity

i'm new to equity, and would appreciate some of the experience discussed in this thread. what mechanism generates heavy demand for nyse when i'm making a better market elsewhere, then causes it to evaporate when i'm his offer? do i smell or something? what's the secret handshake?

lilboy716 · Feb 25, 2006

(assume you routinig through SDOT)
if market is 30x35, you sell long limit at 34. someone could've offer their stock at any price lower than 34 to get their order fill first, even at 34. the process is called price improvement. however, they cant print 35 without filling your order as well. (time of your order entry matter in this case)

if you really want to sell, hit the bid! i hit bid when i sell short, to wait for the next uptick. if you really want in or out of a position, just do it! you're not there to beat the price. you there to make $$$.

Quote from Avid_Consumer:

nobody has answered my question with regard to never getting a fill when i submit a limit sell to the nyse or amex just under his offer, but always seeing him print buys at my limit price or higher when i make a better market than him on arca. literally, every single time, rather conspicuously. he appears to own nearly all the liquidity

i'm new to equity, and would appreciate some of the experience discussed in this thread. what mechanism generates heavy demand for nyse when i'm making a better market elsewhere, then causes it to evaporate when i'm his offer? do i smell or something? what's the secret handshake?

Avid_Consumer · Feb 25, 2006

Quote from lilboy716:

(assume you routinig through SDOT)
if market is 30x35, you sell long limit at 34. someone could've offer their stock at any price lower than 34 to get their order fill first, even at 34. the process is called price improvement. however, they cant print 35 without filling your order as well. (time of your order entry matter in this case)

if you really want to sell, hit the bid! i hit bid when i sell short, to wait for the next uptick. if you really want in or out of a position, just do it! you're not there to beat the price. you there to make $$$.

thanks, i really appreciate your response. ok, i can definitely understand someone making a more competetive offer than mine which is sitting on arca, and them therefore becoming the nbbo. this actually happens quite frequently and before I know it, in the process of feeling for liquidity inside the nyse's wide spread, the stock and the spread have moved significantly lower as i would expect them to if the customer bids in his book truly did change (or can he do this discretionarily? are there conditions under which he can reflect a bid lower than what's actually in his book?).

in this specific situation though, i'm not seeing more competetive offers, i'm almost always seeing buys at my price trading on the nyse and the amex, and yes sometimes even higher which i understand to be a tradethrough. it's certainly frustrating to be the nbbo offer for 200 shares, and watch 1700 shares bought on nyse and amex at my selling price and higher without me getting filled. what's even more frustrating is that in almost every instance where i've improved his offer by sending my limit sell to nyse or amex directly, that flood of easy looking liquidity is never there.

i know it could be random supply and demand, or simply orders being routed directly to the specialists despite a better offer on arca. but after several weeks of experiencing this daily in all sorts of mkt conditions, buys, sells, entries, exits, on an etf without uptick rules... i have the distinct feeling that the liquidity i can never seem to access is initiated by the specialist. it's almost always there when i compete, and almost never there when i try to play along

how do i prove that without documenting and launching a crusade? not sure. but it's a highly consistent behavior. my competetive offers on arca seem to generate a flood of buy liquidity to the specialist. maybe there's a simple explanation.

not sure if i'm routing through SDOT, I'm using IB's default and going direct to nyse, not via smart