objectivisms role in economics

[MandelbrotSet]

Quote from swtrader:

some say that it would have worked, had only he stuck to it, but that in itself may e a failure of the philosphy to take into account human nature

My thoughts exactly.

This is also why it takes so long to succeed at trading. The level of thought we have expressed here is more than enough to figure-out at least the basics of financial markets, managing risk and trading successfully, but it's a horse of another color to execute those plans successfully.

 

[AlpineTrout]

Quote from morganist:

freud claimed that people needed a sense of importance and this is a driver for invention.......

Possibly the same as I said about the motivators of innovation & invention, except packaged differently. Isn't a need for importance really the same as selfishness & greed for notoriety?


Going back to the original question, "Do you think objectivism is the cause of the economic situation?"

From wikipedia on objectivism:

.....that the proper moral purpose of one's life is the pursuit of one's own happiness or rational self-interest; that the only social system consistent with this morality is full respect for individual rights, embodied in pure laissez faire capitalism;....

From this short description of objectivism, how could one possibly conclude that objectivism is the cause? We don't have pure laissez faire capitalism, but we do have a FED that manipulates interest rates that creates business cycles & bubbles.

 

[swtrader]

Quote from AlpineTrout:

Possibly the same as I said about the motivators of innovation & invention, except packaged differently. Isn't a need for importance really the same as selfishness & greed for notoriety?


Going back to the original question, "Do you think objectivism is the cause of the economic situation?"

From wikipedia on objectivism:

.....that the proper moral purpose of one's life is the pursuit of one's own happiness or rational self-interest; that the only social system consistent with this morality is full respect for individual rights, embodied in pure laissez faire capitalism;....

From this short description of objectivism, how could one possibly conclude that objectivism is the cause? We don't have pure laissez faire capitalism, but we do have a FED that manipulates interest rates that creates business cycles & bubbles.

we had the best known economics objectivist (Ayn Rand's economics newsletter editor) as Fed Chairman

if that isnt putting a philosophy 'up to bat', what is?

i've heard excuses for it, he didnt practice it, bla bla bla

i ask, if it's so good, so right, why didnt he practice it?

nobody can claim he didnt know it, nobody in the world knew it better than him - it was like putting karl marx in charge to test communism 'ok karl, you have the reigns - show us what you got - prove it's the best'

if it doesnt work putting an objectivist in charge of the world's economy, what WOULD give objectivism a chance?

 

[AlpineTrout]

Quote from swtrader:

we had the best known economics objectivist (Ayn Rand's economics newsletter editor) as Fed Chairman

if that isnt putting a philosophy 'up to bat', what is?

market driven interest rates would be putting it to bat.

 

[morganist]

Quote from AlpineTrout:

Possibly the same as I said about the motivators of innovation & invention, except packaged differently. Isn't a need for importance really the same as selfishness & greed for notoriety?


Going back to the original question, "Do you think objectivism is the cause of the economic situation?"

From wikipedia on objectivism:

.....that the proper moral purpose of one's life is the pursuit of one's own happiness or rational self-interest; that the only social system consistent with this morality is full respect for individual rights, embodied in pure laissez faire capitalism;....

From this short description of objectivism, how could one possibly conclude that objectivism is the cause? We don't have pure laissez faire capitalism, but we do have a FED that manipulates interest rates that creates business cycles & bubbles.

it is a bit different to what you said to start i actually offered a loose solution. the point i made is if you can love another person more than yourself you can put your personal desires second to that person and beyond if your need for love is satisfied. the solution i made was to love another person in a relationship like a husband or wife or a partner but looking for the ideal or the ultimate match. thus the statement Peace from st Valentines. although all loving relationships have the potential to offer this solution to me this seems to be the strongest.

in relation to the topic is objectivism a cause of the situation in economics. i think obejectivism is something people that have that type of selfish personality stick to and use to excuse their behaviour. i think people look for something that reflects their behaviour and needs. objectivism just affects those people perhaps it makes them more extreme.

however because of elite sectors of society looking for this kind of justification i think providing this argument enabled them to deal with opponents. as they have more power and tools to use it they have probably used it to justify the things that created the economic situation. for example monetarism, advertising, laisse fair economics, self indulgence. all these things have been brought about by the few at the top wanting to get more for themselves think about the indulgence in the eighties and the acceptability of greed and even praise of greed with yuppies. it seemed to provide a social delusion that money meant everything and people who previously shunned that behaviour could no longer argue against the over complicated arguments made in objectivism.

in short it provided them with the high end material to argue against other perspectives to encourage people into their way of selfish behaviour. this is something seen with thatcher and later with new labour. the same in the states with all governments over the last thirty years. the fact was it seemed to work because productivity was high and people wanted to believe it. however the resources are running out and the other consequences of the selfishness show.

none of the policies were introduced in full but that never happens communism in russia was not pure communism.

 

[AlpineTrout]

Quote from morganist:

it is a bit different to what you said to start i actually offered a loose solution. the point i made is if you can love another person more than yourself you can put your personal desires second to that person and beyond if your need for love is satisfied. the solution i made was to love another person in a relationship like a husband or wife or a partner but looking for the ideal or the ultimate match. thus the statement Peace from st Valentines. although all loving relationships have the potential to offer this solution to me this seems to be the strongest.

in relation to the topic is objectivism a cause of the situation in economics. i think obejectivism is something people that have that type of selfish personality stick to and use to excuse their behaviour. i think people look for something that reflects their behaviour and needs. objectivism just affects those people perhaps it makes them more extreme.

however because of elite sectors of society looking for this kind of justification i think providing this argument enabled them to deal with opponents. as they have more power and tools to use it they have probably used it to justify the things that created the economic situation. for example monetarism, advertising, laisse fair economics, self indulgence. all these things have been brought about by the few at the top wanting to get more for themselves think about the indulgence in the eighties and the acceptability of greed and even praise of greed with yuppies. it seemed to provide a social delusion that money meant everything and people who previously shunned that behaviour could no longer argue against the over complicated arguments made in objectivism.

in short it provided them with the high end material to argue against other perspectives to encourage people into their way of selfish behaviour. this is something seen with thatcher and later with new labour. the same in the states with all governments over the last thirty years. the fact was it seemed to work because productivity was high and people wanted to believe it. however the resources are running out and the other consequences of the selfishness show.

none of the policies were introduced in full but that never happens communism in russia was not pure communism.

Is it really anyone's business how much money a person wants or the reasons he wants it, or how much he makes, or what he spends it on?

Who gets to set the standard for selfishness & greed?

If a person doesn't respect property rights or commits fraud, that something different.

 

[morganist]

Quote from AlpineTrout:

Is it really anyone's business how much money a person wants or the reasons he wants it, or how much he makes, or what he spends it on?

Who gets to set the standard for selfishness & greed?

If a person doesn't respect property rights or commits fraud, that something different.

whether it is anyone's business or not how much money a person wants or the other questions. it is people's business when the way they make that money impacts on their life. also if he spends it on prostitutes or purchasing all of the property or food it has an affect on other people's lives which is very much their business. for example if someone bought all the food and said to people you have to do what i want to get feed that will impact on people and affects their lives.

this is an extreme example of objectivism but it shows the point well. people don't always know what is best for themselves also. think about people who always do what they want they often regret things as they get older. also the term revolution came from when people are treated badly and the treatment they subjected to becomes what they subject the subjector to.

also why does selfishness have to be negative. people often want to do what they want in a way that benefits others some people like to help other genuinely.
i think objectivism just justifies one type of selfishness the one that affects others and tries to make out that affect on others is acceptable and even virtuous. if it did not affect others others would not hold those who see the world that way with negativity. the objective philosophy in itself is self defeating. it tries to justify selfishness but justification in itself is an omission of a viewed crime by society. would you try to justify helping an old lady cross a street or giving money to others who need it. no you would praise them for being kind. the fact that ayn rand had to justify her view, in short to persuade people that being selfish is not wrong is an omission that it is wrong as people do not like that behaviour as it impacts them negatively thus some kind of reasoning is required to avoid hostility.

'a decent act requires no justification as it is acknowledge by society as a whole as acceptable behaviour, thus there is no threat of reprisals from such an action so no kind of reasoning is required to understand why it was performed.'

quote peter morgan.

 

[AlpineTrout]

Quote from AlpineTrout:

Who gets to set the standard for selfishness & greed?

Lets say that you have this strange hobby (imo only) of collecting 18th century dildos. You're just crazy about the things. And, I come along and say "Hey, isn't that selfish of you to spend all that money on those dildos when you could be giving that money to your local orphanage?"

Isn't rather silly to say whether or not someone is selfish or greedy? Aren't the words selfish and greedy, really just words of jealousy?

 

[swtrader]

Quote from AlpineTrout:

Lets say that you have this strange hobby (imo only) of collecting 18th century dildos. You're just crazy about the things. And, I come along and say "Hey, isn't that selfish of you to spend all that money on those dildos when you could be giving that money to your local orphanage?"

Isn't rather silly to say whether or not someone is selfish or greedy? Aren't the words selfish and greedy, really just words of jealousy?

well, if a guy has a bobby of collecting dildos, i think it's just as well he isnt ingratiating himself to the local orphange

 

[AlpineTrout]

Quote from swtrader:

well, if a guy has a bobby of collecting dildos, i think it's just as well he isnt ingratiating himself to the local orphange