Obama says he is gonna reduce costs?

Sell 'em · Jul 23, 2009

Quote from countryBoy:

The single largest component of spiraling health care cost is malpractice insurance ... Somebody's lying.

YOU are either lying or stupid, Boy. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, assume you are stupid, and pass along some free education.

Legal cost is insignificant compared to excess admin-related fees our system tacks on as charges migrate from service delivery to end consumer.

The malpractice line is a myth perpetrated by non other than the American Medical Association.

"Its membership has declined in part because of its embarrassing historical record: the A.M.A. supported segregation, opposed President Harry Trumanâs plans for national health insurance, backed tobacco, denounced Medicare and opposed President Bill Clintonâs health reform plan."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/25/opinion/25kristof.ready.html

countryBoy · Jul 23, 2009

Quote from Sell 'em:

YOU are either lying or stupid, Boy.

I was waiting patiently for it, and finally got it: an ad-hominem attack, the most reliable sign of the presence of an mindless Obamabot.

Your link contains the same unsubstantiaded pap trying to create class warfare. And that is just a fancy phrase for jealously. If were true that doctors are getting wealthy, which they are not, that is no reason to dismantle the best health care system in the world. But the facts are actually the opposite: under ObamaCare, there will be a large net exodus of talented MDs from the system. They government payments will be too low, and quality care will drop precipitously.

As far as the massive cost that malpractice (lack of tort reform) has imposed on health care, to see it one only needs to compare human health care to veterinarian care (dogs, cats, horses etc.) In veterinarian care, major treatments (surgeries etc) are available at a small fraction of the cost that these identical procedures cost for humans. The difference: medical malpractice. It is almost unheard of for Veterinarians.

The reason that Obama will never mention tort reform in the same debate as health care is because the trial lawyers are one of his major contributors. So, in fact, Obama is not at all interested in Health Care Reform. He is just interested in running everybodys' lives (and collecting a very large fee for it).

trefoil · Jul 23, 2009

Quote from countryBoy:

Your link contains the same unsubstantiaded pap trying to create class warfare. And that is just a fancy phrase for jealously.

That's a pretty weird characterization of an article that actually agrees with you on tort reform.

Quote from countryBoy:

But the facts are actually the opposite: under ObamaCare, there will be a large net exodus of talented MDs from the system. They government payments will be too low, and quality care will drop precipitously.

That's a hypothetical and your opinion, not a fact. Note that the article cites a number of physician orgs that are in favor of reform. Note also that half of the members of the AMA disagree with them on the subject. My wife is one of them. That doesn't mean she's happy with the entire thing (see below, for instance) but I don't know many people who think what we have now is worth fighting for.

Quote from countryBoy:

As far as the massive cost that malpractice (lack of tort reform) has imposed on health care, to see it one only needs to compare human health care to veterinarian care (dogs, cats, horses etc.) In veterinarian care, major treatments (surgeries etc) are available at a small fraction of the cost that these identical procedures cost for humans. The difference: medical malpractice. It is almost unheard of for Veterinarians.

I don't know about the vet care part, since obviously animal care would not be as expensive simply because not as much is spent on them when they get old and are close to dying, usually, anyway. But it is true that tort reform is needed.

Quote from countryBoy:

The reason that Obama will never mention tort reform in the same debate as health care is because the trial lawyers are one of his major contributors. So, in fact, Obama is not at all interested in Health Care Reform. He is just interested in running everybodys' lives (and collecting a very large fee for it).

This is
a) true about the trial lawyers. Everyone knows it. The world isn't ideal and never will be. That's why we have two parties.
b) silly as far as Obama wanting to run everyone's lives. Even if he were, it adds nothing to the issue of whether reform is good or bad. His plan is not what a leftist would propose. A leftist would propose single-payer, full stop. This ain't it.

Arnie · Jul 23, 2009

Quote from Sell 'em:

YOU are either lying or stupid, Boy. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, assume you are stupid, and pass along some free education.

Legal cost is insignificant compared to excess admin-related fees our system tacks on as charges migrate from service delivery to end consumer.

The malpractice line is a myth perpetrated by non other than the American Medical Association.

"Its membership has declined in part because of its embarrassing historical record: the A.M.A. supported segregation, opposed President Harry Trumanâs plans for national health insurance, backed tobacco, denounced Medicare and opposed President Bill Clintonâs health reform plan."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/25/opinion/25kristof.ready.html

Well now. The AMA is backing Obama's plan.

So what's your opinion of the AMA now?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/16/obama-health-plan-ama-support

Angrycat · Jul 23, 2009

Quote from Illum:

I don't know why a conservative would care about Grandma? Seems republican to say if Grandma doesn't have the cash, she doesn't get the titanium hip, she gets a cane. Works for me, later Grandma! Lets not distort good $ sense on party lines alone.

While it's tempting to play the blood sport of partisan politics right now, let's consider that this is going to effect you and your kids and just think about it that way.

If you are "team Democrat" and the Dems win this and you lose because of it, what have you won exactly?

Focus on the legislation, not who is pushing for it.

Angrycat · Jul 23, 2009

Quote from cstfx:

I have a friend who is a surgeon in NYC. He once told me that his annual malpractice insurance premiums are 3.5MM. 3.5MM!!! Add to that his fixed expenses (equipment & office rent), staff salaries, etc. So he has to generate revenue. Any wonder why doctors have to inflate their bills just to cover these expenses.

I come from a family of surgeons. I'm sorry, but I think you're mistaken about that number.

$3.5MM is not his premium. That may be the amount he's covered for or it may be the premium for his entire practice, which includes a large number of doctors in the practice.

Scataphagos · Jul 23, 2009

Quote from Angrycat:

While it's tempting to play the blood sport of partisan politics right now, let's consider that this is going to effect you and your kids and just think about it that way.

If you are "team Democrat" and the Dems win this and you lose because of it, what have you won exactly?

Focus on the legislation, not who is pushing for it.

The children of Obama supporters (and the rest of us unfortunately) ARE SCREWED EVERY WHICH WAY FROM SUNDAY!! How can people not see that? How can people express their greed for "free ice cream" when it will destroy any chance of having a happy and productive life for their kids????????

Angrycat · Jul 23, 2009

Quote from trefoil:

half of the members of the AMA disagree with them on the subject. My wife is one of them. That doesn't mean she's happy with the entire thing (see below, for instance) but I don't know many people who think what we have now is worth fighting for.

Totally agree with you, but neither is this piece of garbage legislation. We need a change, but a change to a worse system is going to make things better.

Scrap this and try again.

Angrycat · Jul 23, 2009

Quote from Scataphagos:

The children of Obama supporters (and the rest of us unfortunately) ARE SCREWED EVERY WHICH WAY FROM SUNDAY!! How can people not see that? How can people express their greed for "free ice cream" when it will destroy any chance of having a happy and productive life for their kids????????

Because they don't see. Some of them blindly believe that Obama has their best interests at heart. Like all politicians, he has only his own interests at heart.

Show these people the problems with the legislation and how it will effect them. Tell them to demand better. That's what counts. Don't bother bashing Obama. The man doesn't even know what's in the bill and these heightened emotional political arguments only serve to allow people to wax philosophical about stupid shit while congress dances away with your liberty.

countryBoy · Jul 23, 2009

Quote from trefoil:

That's a hypothetical and your opinion, not a fact. Note that the article cites a number of physician orgs that are in favor of reform.

Not a hypothetical. I know several MDs. They say they will leave practice if the ObamaCare bill becomes law.

I don't know about the vet care part, since obviously animal care would not be as expensive simply because not as much is spent on them when they get old and are close to dying, usually, anyway. But it is true that tort reform is needed.

I have a dog with cancer. He has had several operations, 2 separate radiation treatments, one being CyberKnife (Patrick Swayze had a CyberKnife treatment). All tolled, I have spent enough money on vet care for the dog that I could have instead bought a new small car. But if this care was spent on a human, it would have easily been three times that cost. E-mail me if you want me to fax you copies of the bills.

Agreed, tort reform is needed.