REP. ARMEY: Of course their taxes are going to go up. And, and, and whatâone of the things about how to pay for it that I think is really causing a lot of distress and anxiety, especially among seniorsâand where you want to talk about a real miserable instability Iâve observed the last couple of weeks, seniors today are captured by Medicare. They have no choice, they canât get out of it if they want to without being punished by the government....
MR. GREGORY: Rachel...
REP. ARMEY: Theyâre scared to death of what the governmentâs going to do with them.
MR. GREGORY: OK. Rachel:
MS. MADDOW: Do you really think that thereâs a major uprising of seniors wanting to get out of Medicare? I know youâre suing the government for your right personally to get out of Medicare.
REP. ARMEY: Right.
MS. MADDOW: But do you really think thatâs the problem...
SEN. COBURN: Is it...
MS. MADDOW: ...that Medicareâthat seniors hate Medicare and they want out?
REP. ARMEY: No, I didnât say that. Most seniorsâI was talking to my minister the other day. My minister says, âDick, Iâm so fortunate Iâm in Medicare.â I said, âBless you, my, my friend that you get to be in it if you choose to be so.â But if you give a government program and you let me choose to be in or choose to be out, thatâs generosity. If you force me in, irrespective of my desires, thatâs tyranny. Now, if Medicareâs $46 trillion in the red, with no idea how weâre going to pay for it, why, why do they not let people who donât want to be in out?
MS. MADDOW: This is...
MR. GREGORY: Let meâI want to get it...
REP. ARMEY: I mean, thatâs...
MS. MADDOW: JustâIâvery briefly.
REP. ARMEY: This, this, this defies logic.
MS. MADDOW: This is a really important point. The anti-healthcare reform lobby thinks that Medicare is tyranny, OK?
REP. ARMEY: I didâI said...
MS. MADDOW: This is anâI mean, you said in 1995 that âMedicare is a program I would have no part of in a free world.â
REP. ARMEY: Right. Absolutely right.
MS. MADDOW: You said in 2002, âWeâre going to have to bite the bullet on Social Security and phase it out over a period of time.â
REP. ARMEY: And Iâm going to enumerate exactly what Iâm talking about. Medicare...
MS. MADDOW: Americans need to know this is your position and this is the position of the anti-healthcare reform lobby.
MR. GREGORY: Iâm going to, Iâm going to stop this...
REP. ARMEY: This is the Medicare law that was written and...
MS. MADDOW: Itâs very important to understand.
REP. ARMEY: The Medicare law that was written by the chairman of the Ways and Means Committee and the chief lobbyists of Blue Cross/Blue Shield, voted on without amendment as an amendment to Social Security, first imposes severe sanctions on physicians and medical providers that donât comply with its requirements, and it says to seniors at the age of 65 you can no longer buy the insurance that you bought prior to 65. And now by virtue of an internal memoânot a regulation, not a lawâthey tell seniors today...
MR. GREGORY: All right.
REP. ARMEY: ...if you donât sign up for Medicare youâll lose your Social Security.
MR. GREGORY: I want to...
REP. ARMEY: Now, ifâyou tell me what, what, what that has to do with anybodyâs notion of liberty...
MS. MADDOW: Tell me what that has to do with healthcare reform.