NYT: In Global Battle on AIDS, Bush Creates Legacy

[oktiri]

Quote from bigdavediode:

Forever if the woman of the family can't afford a condom, (their income average $2 a day) or if no one has told them what the disease is or how to prevent it. Or local myths regarding condoms. Or white (or black) religious leaders telling them that birth control is immoral. As well, zero access to treatment.

Only recently, for example, has South Africa started education on AIDS and now that condoms are being distributed in Uganda, for example, incidence has declined from 13% to 4.1% since 2003.



Wow, that's quite shocking, offensive, and once again, ignorant. Your lack of knowledge of South Africa, for example, that it is a "monogamous culture" would be incredibly offensive to, well frankly, anyone from that country.

The Republicans, under Reagan, withdrew all US aid for "health organizations for the promotion of birth control or abortion.” The U.S. then withdrew funding from the UN Fund for Population Activities and the International Planned Parenthood Federation which obviously did not improve the situation during the initial period where prevention would have been most useful.

I've been to South Africa. I saw it all.
Up to a few months ago, Thabo Mbeki was still stating that HIV and AIDS have nothing to do with each other, (denying causality) The Health minister was encouraging people to shower to wash the virus off. and it only goes downhill from there.
Let's not talk about AIDS among African Americans in the US.
They brought it upon themselves. They are promiscuous (just compare to Mali/ Niger, they're black too) not my problem. Let the thing run its course....till expiry. Sorry

I'm willing to help when it doesn't rain and the crops are ruined. I'm willing to help when an accident strikes and somebody is left helpless and desperate, I'm willing to help an innocent kid infected at birth. I'm not willing to help when a repeating pattern of behavior causes negative consequences. you'd be just wasting your money, because they need to fix their value system, one more AIDS drugs container will help only that long.




Please, no more excuses.

 

[bigdavediode]

Quote from oktiri:

I've been to South Africa. I saw it all.
Up to a few months ago, Thabo Mbeki was still stating that HIV and AIDS have nothing to do with each other, (denying causality) The Health minister was encouraging people to shower to wash the virus off. and it only goes downhill from there.

Don't just end with a mumble, explain how your valid point about the health minister and education shows that it's the non "monogamous culture" that's to blame.

Please, no more excuses.

Yes, please. Your posts are simply unsupportable based on the statistics.

If it's a problem with the non "monogamous culture" of "those people" then why such great strides in reduction of AIDS in many countries in Africa, such as Uganda, now that NGO's are distributing condoms and educational materials?

I'm not sure why I'm posting this -- your motivation has zero to do with the statistics or research and 100% to do with skin color.

And don't deny that, it would just insult both you and me, given that you've already written (jokingly, ha ha) that you'd be happy to shoot every black person.

Ditch your bigotry -- not because it's wrong -- although it is. Ditch it because it makes you look ignorant, and you don't want to look ignorant. Do you want to look like Pabst?

 

[oktiri]

Quote from bigdavediode:

Don't just end with a mumble, explain how your valid point about the health minister and education shows that it's the non "monogamous culture" that's to blame.




Yes, please. Your posts are simply unsupportable based on the statistics.

If it's a problem with the non "monogamous culture" of "those people" then why such great strides in reduction of AIDS in many countries in Africa, such as Uganda, now that NGO's are distributing condoms and educational materials?

I'm not sure why I'm posting this -- your motivation has zero to do with the statistics or research and 100% to do with skin color.

And don't deny that, it would just insult both you and me, given that you've already written (jokingly, ha ha) that you'd be happy to shoot every black person.

Ditch your bigotry -- not because it's wrong -- although it is. Ditch it because it makes you look ignorant, and you don't want to look ignorant. Do you want to look like Pabst?

No true, I was just joking about the "shooting" stuff. I also joked about shooting evangelicals, who suffer from a similar type of disease. a complete meltdown of cognitive ability.

I'm not a bigot, otherwise, I wouldn't be supporting Obama so wholeheartedly but I do believe there is a "value system" problem. I always talk about US blacks as a demographic and not a race and, even when it came to Africa. I discriminated between Malli/ Niger (Black in color ) and South Africa/ Uganda (Black as well)......

Listen, Yes Mbeki is a dick and carries a lot of blame but Mbeki doesn't translate to Uganda and other neighboring countries . I'm sure you're familiar with control group / placebo effect concepts of the pharmaceutical industry. You can only infer causality to a factor when the "control group" is spared

So let me refrain in more discerning terms.

-- There is a systemic values problem in some African countries where AIDS is spreading like wildfire. These countries happen to be "black." Some other Black countries are spared (Niger, Mali, Tchad, Sudan). It's not skin color, it's cultural.
-- South Africa has a distinct problem, due to a total failure of leadership. doesn't explain everything, so South Africa falls witihin the first group.

 

[Fractals 'R Us]

Quote from bigdavediode:

Don't just end with a mumble, explain how your valid point about the health minister and education shows that it's the non "monogamous culture" that's to blame.




Yes, please. Your posts are simply unsupportable based on the statistics.

If it's a problem with the non "monogamous culture" of "those people" then why such great strides in reduction of AIDS in many countries in Africa, such as Uganda, now that NGO's are distributing condoms and educational materials?

I'm not sure why I'm posting this -- your motivation has zero to do with the statistics or research and 100% to do with skin color.

And don't deny that, it would just insult both you and me, given that you've already written (jokingly, ha ha) that you'd be happy to shoot every black person.

Ditch your bigotry -- not because it's wrong -- although it is. Ditch it because it makes you look ignorant, and you don't want to look ignorant. Do you want to look like Pabst?

You are one of the largest sources of drivel on these forums. You seem like a cross between Carvel and somebody that thinks that ignorance is a virtue...

I knew a gal from Uganda, she said they had regular, primetime TV public awareness programs telling them that abstinence was the only way to stop AIDS.. I love it, before AIDS liberals were telling us that condoms were not a very good birth control method, now they are telling us condoms are the answer to AIDS.. the Ugandans are smarter than liberals like you Dave..

 

[bigdavediode]

Quote from oktiri:

-- There is a systemic values problem in some African countries where AIDS is spreading like wildfire. These countries happen to be "black." Some other Black countries are spared (Niger, Mali, Tchad, Sudan). It's not skin color, it's cultural.

So reductions in AIDS rates since introduction of condoms and education is because of... a cultural change. Look, this conversation has deteriorated into nothingness. You have no sensible position here.

Sweden has one of the lowest marriage rates. Therefore, according to your theory, their "values problem" should result in high AIDS rates.

Personally, I feel it's the lack of condoms that causes the problem. Why isn't the lack of condoms the primary problem?

 

[bigdavediode]

Quote from Fractals 'R Us:

You are one of the largest sources of drivel on these forums. You seem like a cross between Carvel and somebody that thinks that ignorance is a virtue...

Okay. (Ad homs are pretty dull, in my opinion, but go wild, they bounce off me and have since third grade.)

I knew a gal from Uganda, she said they had regular, primetime TV public awareness programs telling them that abstinence was the only way to stop AIDS.. I love it, before AIDS liberals were telling us that condoms were not a very good birth control method

Would these be some kind of fantasy-liberals?

What you're doing here is called building a strawman -- pretending that the opponent has taken some position that he hasn't. It's a very obvious and boring debate technique and is also a logical fallacy.

, now they are telling us condoms are the answer to AIDS..

Condoms one of the key methods of prevention. I'm not sure what you want to argue with here.

the Ugandans are smarter than liberals like you Dave..

Ooooh, an ad hom. How exciting.

 

[oktiri]

Quote from bigdavediode:

Sweden has one of the lowest marriage rates. Therefore, according to your theory, their "values problem" should result in high AIDS rates.

Personally, I feel it's the lack of condoms that causes the problem. Why isn't the lack of condoms the primary problem?

Valid point. I was going to edit my post, but couldn't

Promiscuity is a NECESSARY but not sufficient factor, if you add to it ignorance and no access to condoms, it makes for a perfect storm.
We'll go back to Sweden but let's step back and look at Mali for a second. The only difference between the two countries is "promiscuity" due to cultural factors, mostly religion. everything else is pretty much the same (Both sub saharan Africa, pretty much same genetic, both poor income, similar family structure..)

Now, that we've established its role. It's fair to ask why not Sweden.

-- Sweden
Because they can afford to ! they' have access to plenty of condoms, regular blood tests, good heath care system. and whenever somebody is "flagged", he's pretty much excluded or excludes himself by himself from the "let's fuck together" pool. Ugandan wait for full blown AIDS outburst to stop fucking around

but the short answer remains. :They Can afford to

Ugandans shouldn't be asking "why cant' we fuck" like the Swedes for the same reason Americans shouldn't be asking for more Tax Cuts. We can't afford to. So sit down and turn on the TV.

No fucking for Ugandans
No Tax cuts for Americans.

both "screwed up" for too long. one of them quite literally.

 

[trendlover]

Africa has Islam and Christianity. With this religion comes polygamy. Women have one husband to have sex with, but men have many wives and sex with girlfriends. It is part of the culture, and is part of the religion. It is against the law for a women to refuse sex from her husband when she know he has AID, so she has to divorce him and maybe live in poverty. So in many parts of Africa it is the promiscuos men who refuse to control the spread of AID. It is cultural and religious problem.

 

[oktiri]

Quote from trendlover:

Africa has Islam and Christianity. With this religion comes polygamy. Women have one husband to have sex with, but men have many wives and sex with girlfriends. It is part of the culture, and is part of the religion. It is against the law for a women to refuse sex from her husband when she know he has AID, so she has to divorce him and maybe live in poverty. So in many parts of Africa it is the promiscuos men who refuse to control the spread of AID. It is cultural and religious problem.

Nope, most of the areas where AIDS proliferate. have diluted, almost to homeopathic concentrations, localized versions of world religions with overriding tribal customs... Both countries where orthodox Christianity & Islam are established have very low AIDS rates (Niger , Mali)

 

[acronym]

Quote from oktiri:

Nope, most of the areas where AIDS proliferate. have diluted, almost to homeopathic concentrations, localized versions of world religions with overriding tribal customs... Both countries where orthodox Christianity & Islam are established have very low AIDS rates (Niger , Mali)

Oh, so religion will fix everything then, Bush and his missionaries must have been right, is what your saying.