NYSE Trading -- Is this legal?
- Thread starter cornholetrading
- Start date
That's not necessarily true. If the specialist is working a big order, he quite often takes the market orders to work his big order with and hands off the limit orders to his assistant so he doesn't have to deal with him. The assistant has certain discretion and can fill those immediately while the specialist is still working the market orders. However, he still has the 2 minute rule to deal with.
I've seen situations where a market order and a marketable limit order where put in at the same time and the limit order was filled first. At times, the limit order might have been filled first, but the market order got a better price.
the one thing most nyse complainers miss and you will never get with an electronic exchange is this.PRICE IMPROVEMENT.sure there will be times you will think you got screwed by the specialist but the amount of extra money you make through price improvement will be many times more.
First, let me correct you on something....my moniker is OldTrader NOT OldTimer. This error on your part only goes to prove that your READING abilities are lacking. I REPEATEDLY have said your order needs to BE THERE, obviously within the context of the rulebook.
But here's my promise, I'll get a copy of the NYSE rule book since you seem to think my knowledge is lacking (I've only got 35 years of trading experience), if you and a few of the others will promise to sign up for a remedial reading class.
Sheesh. Call me cranky. It happens at my age.
OldTrader
Will it? I'm not sure about that one. Can you offer some statistics? Some official study or smth? B/c having seen what I've seen (altbeit that may not be as much as some of you guys), it sure doesn't look that way. I tend to trade only in conditions where there are fast moves in large cap large volume stocks. If it's a Nasdaq stock, you are right, I won't get any price improvement. But hey, at least I know that I'll get a fill WHEN I need it and WHERE I need it (or very very close to it). Now contrast that with NYSE, if the stock is moving fast and I want to cancel my prior limit (so that it doesn't get filled at the limit price when it gets traded through - I can't cancel it (it freezes and gives a too late to cancel message later) and in almost all cases it does get filled at an inferior price.
The only time it seems to get canceled is when it turns out I shouldn't have touched it and maybe would have benefited from the two minute rule... I sure seems like it ain't totally random in terms of when the system is in your favor and when it's not. And I don't think you can easily claim you make more on price improvement than you lose on such things.Originally posted by vhehn
the one thing most nyse complainers miss and you will never get with an electronic exchange is this.PRICE IMPROVEMENT.sure there will be times you will think you got screwed by the specialist but the amount of extra money you make through price improvement will be many times more.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Will it? I'm not sure about that one. Can you offer some statistics? Some official study or smth? B/c having seen what I've seen (altbeit that may not be as much as some of you guys), it sure doesn't look that way. I tend to trade only in conditions where there are fast moves in large cap large volume stocks. If it's a Nasdaq stock, you are right, I won't get any price improvement. But hey, at least I know that I'll get a fill WHEN I need it and WHERE I need it (or very very close to it). Now contrast that with NYSE, if the stock is moving fast and I want to cancel my prior limit (so that it doesn't get filled at the limit price when it gets traded through - I can't cancel it (it freezes and gives a too late to cancel message later) and in almost all cases it does get filled at an inferior price. The only time it seems to get canceled is when it turns out I shouldn't have touched it and maybe would have benefited from the two minute rule... I sure seems like it ain't totally random in terms of when the system is in your favor and when it's not. And I don't think you can easily claim you make more on price improvement than you lose on such things.
i get price improvement every day.first of all if you want to trade the musical chairs type of trading(last one out is a loser type of game)the nyse probably isnt the place.but that game is almost dead anyhow.to make money now days you have to play a different type of game.the old days of chasing momentum and breakouts doesnt work so good any more.
the one thing most nyse complainers miss and you will never get with an electronic exchange is this.PRICE IMPROVEMENT.sure there will be times you will think you got screwed by the specialist but the amount of extra money you make through price improvement will be many times more.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Will it? I'm not sure about that one. Can you offer some statistics? Some official study or smth? B/c having seen what I've seen (altbeit that may not be as much as some of you guys), it sure doesn't look that way. I tend to trade only in conditions where there are fast moves in large cap large volume stocks. If it's a Nasdaq stock, you are right, I won't get any price improvement. But hey, at least I know that I'll get a fill WHEN I need it and WHERE I need it (or very very close to it). Now contrast that with NYSE, if the stock is moving fast and I want to cancel my prior limit (so that it doesn't get filled at the limit price when it gets traded through - I can't cancel it (it freezes and gives a too late to cancel message later) and in almost all cases it does get filled at an inferior price. The only time it seems to get canceled is when it turns out I shouldn't have touched it and maybe would have benefited from the two minute rule... I sure seems like it ain't totally random in terms of when the system is in your favor and when it's not. And I don't think you can easily claim you make more on price improvement than you lose on such things.
i get price improvement every day.first of all if you want to trade the musical chairs type of trading(last one out is a loser type of game)the nyse probably isnt the place.but that game is almost dead anyhow.to make money now days you have to play a different type of game.the old days of chasing momentum and breakouts doesnt work so good any more.
What exactly are you referring to by "musical chairs" type of trading? I still make a bundle on NYSE doing what I'm doing (especially when the markets are closed and the specialist isn't screwing the system). I'm not chasing any momentum and/or breakouts. And my strategy doens't really have anything to do with any indicator you will read about in the TA books (I don't even have to see any charts). I haven't read a single one and am up quite nicely so far, thank God
If someone did have some nice TA scheme that worked, why would he write about it in a book? If he's trying to make money by selling the book, it sorta should give the potential reader an idea of how useful that stuff is.
I do get price improvement too, a penny here or there. Most of the times, it wouldn't have made much of a difference. When I get screwed the way I wouldnt' have been on Naz, it's a totally different scale. I don't think the former makes up for the latter.
PS By the way, speaking of afterhours, I know that MMs are very active when the markets are closed. Do any of you guys know if the specialists are actively managing their inventories etc in afterhours, via crossing sessions and/or ECNs etc???
Thanks.
Originally posted by vladiator
I've had that happend to me a lot with some specialists. What sucks most is that if the price keeps going in the direction that's to my favor and I know from prior experience I'm gonna eventually get a fill at the price I put in earlier- I can't even cancel the trade and reenter it at a better price. It just freezes there and gives me a bad fill with a "too late to cancel" note a minute later....
Is getting in cancels a universal problem or is it actually a broker-specific problem?
Thanks.
The reason your order won't cancel, cause after the fill below your bid, you're now most likely the best bid, and the specialist already has decided to fill you shares somewhere in between your bid price and the last trade. So you'll get you price or better. Again in this situation, there was not enough stock to sweep you to the better price, but he does have enough a bit higher to fill you. But the specialist, on his side has filled your order, he's just late reporting it. And like I said earlier, he has leeway from the time he fills it in his hands to the time he reports it on the tape. And some of you are also correct, that he does take advantage of it, but he's running a business to make money, and it is within the rules for him to play some of these games.
SD, you're right, you never hear enyone complaining about the better fills you get. I think in the end, I've made more money with the better fills, then I've lost with the screwjobs. It's the risks of the business and we all have to live with it. Gotta love this game!!!!
Weird, b/c the price just keeps dropping and I should have easily bought much lower than where he fills me , judging by the quotes and T/S dynamics afterwards. It sure looks like he had plenty of stock to fill me at a better price. You are right though, he is in it to make money and he certainly would make more if I make less in many cases... I send my limit order and it's a free option to him. Of course he'd rather excercise it when it's as much in the money as he can, without blatantly bending the rules (maybe just some). I'm not bitching about it to say that I'd rather stay out of NYSE, I often just have to be trading NYSE stocks. I do have to admit that I cling to the opinion that NYSE is operationally obsolete.