NYSE reserve display change

Quote from speculatus:

In order to post reserve liquidity the specialist/floor broker had to show at least 1K, and it would be shown on NYOB. What Level II are you referring to?
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No, it wouldn't show on the NYOB. It would be shown on the level level II, but only when it was on the inside market on NYS.

For example.

There is a reserve order at 25.34 on the bid, showing 1,000 shares, containing 25,000.

I bid 500 shares at 25.34.

On the NYOB, you only see at 25.34 500 shares. However, on the level II, you see 1500 shares - the 1,000 floor broker reserve and then my 500.

If I bid 100 on NYS at 25.35, you now won't see the 25.34 1000 floor broker reserve, only my 500 in the open boook. The floor broker could cancel his order at this time and there would be no way for anyone to know, except for his buddy floor brokers, who can see the depth of market for bloor broker orders.

If you can see it in the NYOB, it's a regular retail order, or an order put in the NYOB by a floor broker that differs in no way whatsoever from any order you or I can put. When the floor broker is on the inside market, you see him on the LII but not the book, 100% of the time.
 
Quote from FXTraderWill:

No, it wouldn't show on the NYOB. It would be shown on the level level II, but only when it was on the inside market on NYS.

For example.

There is a reserve order at 25.34 on the bid, showing 1,000 shares, containing 25,000.

I bid 500 shares at 25.34.

On the NYOB, you only see at 25.34 500 shares. However, on the level II, you see 1500 shares - the 1,000 floor broker reserve and then my 500.

If I bid 100 on NYS at 25.35, you now won't see the 25.34 1000 floor broker reserve, only my 500 in the open boook. The floor broker could cancel his order at this time and there would be no way for anyone to know, except for his buddy floor brokers, who can see the depth of market for bloor broker orders.

If you can see it in the NYOB, it's a regular retail order, or an order put in the NYOB by a floor broker that differs in no way whatsoever from any order you or I can put. When the floor broker is on the inside market, you see him on the LII but not the book, 100% of the time.
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Man, I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.What is NYS??? What Level II on NYSE are you talking about???

When the specialist/floor broker had to post reserved liquidity, he had to show at least 1K. That 1K size would appear on the top of the NYSE book (NYOB). The rest of reserved liquidity is not displayed on NYOB, and can be designated as "do not display" on NYSE Display Book.

Here is refresh (1K) on the bid, and that 1K is shown on the top of the book:

9/19/2007 LCC.N

Code: 
11:27:08  30.67 x 30.68  14 x 9  
11:27:10  30.67 x 30.68  10 x 9  
11:27:10  8s30.67
11:27:10  1s30.67
11:27:12  30.67 x 30.68  10 x 9  
11:27:12  1000s30.67
11:27:12  1000s30.67
11:27:12  30.67 x 30.68  11 x 9  
11:27:13  30.67 x 30.68  10 x 9  
11:27:13  1000s30.67
11:27:13  1000s30.67
11:27:13  1100s30.67
11:27:13  9s30.67
11:27:13  1000s30.67
11:27:13  1000s30.67
11:27:13  1000s30.67
11:27:13  1200s30.67
11:27:14  30.67 x 30.68  10 x 9  
11:27:14  1000s30.67
11:27:14  1000s30.67
11:27:14  30.67 x 30.68  12 x 9  
11:27:14  30.67 x 30.68  15 x 9  
11:27:14  30.67 x 30.68  10 x 9  
11:27:14  1000s30.67
11:27:14  1000s30.67
11:27:15  30.66 x 30.68  2 x 9
 
Quote from speculatus:

Man, I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.What is NYS??? What Level II on NYSE are you talking about???

When the specialist/floor broker had to post reserved liquidity, he had to show at least 1K. That 1K size would appear on the top of the NYSE book (NYOB). The rest of reserved liquidity is not displayed on NYOB, and can be designated as "do not display" on NYSE Display Book.

Here is refresh (1K) on the bid, and that 1K is shown on the top of the book:

9/19/2007 LCC.N

Code: 
11:27:08  30.67 x 30.68  14 x 9  
11:27:10  30.67 x 30.68  10 x 9  
11:27:10  8s30.67
11:27:10  1s30.67
11:27:12  30.67 x 30.68  10 x 9  
11:27:12  1000s30.67
11:27:12  1000s30.67
11:27:12  30.67 x 30.68  11 x 9  
11:27:13  30.67 x 30.68  10 x 9  
11:27:13  1000s30.67
11:27:13  1000s30.67
11:27:13  1100s30.67
11:27:13  9s30.67
11:27:13  1000s30.67
11:27:13  1000s30.67
11:27:13  1000s30.67
11:27:13  1200s30.67
11:27:14  30.67 x 30.68  10 x 9  
11:27:14  1000s30.67
11:27:14  1000s30.67
11:27:14  30.67 x 30.68  12 x 9  
11:27:14  30.67 x 30.68  15 x 9  
11:27:14  30.67 x 30.68  10 x 9  
11:27:14  1000s30.67
11:27:14  1000s30.67
11:27:15  30.66 x 30.68  2 x 9
More...

Specialist liquidity is not displayed at the top of the open book. Your software may be conslidating the NYSE level I quote with the open book, but floor broker orders do not appear in the open book. You can see this as if you subscribe to an open book data feed through any provider, you won't see refreshing liquidity. In Anvil, lightspeed, sterling, the eSignal open book, the Realtick open book, you won't see the floor brokers in the book because it's a separate feed. You can see when, at the top of the NYOB, you see 800 and on your level II you see "1800". The prints can be for however much size, but that 800 shares is an order that you or I can put in, and the reserve 1000 share order (which can now show as little as 100) can only been seen from NYSE's official level I quote. Comparing it to the inside open book let's you see how much they're displaying; if you're long a stock and it reaches a price where the best offer on NYSE is 400 shares at 50.51, and in the open boko at 50.51 you only see 300 shares, there exists the possibility for that last hundred shares which you don't see in the open book to contain an infinitely large reserve. Before, you would have to see 1300 at 50.51 in the level I feed and 300 at 50.51 in the open book feed. This was easier for daytraders, because if I saw on the inside market 1200 shares offered at 50.51, but only 300 shares at 50.51 in the open book, I knew that the 900 share floor broker order could not contain a reserve because it didn't show 1000. If the order was previously refreshing, showing 1000 sharse and printing many thousands more, and suddenly showed the difference between the open book and level I NYSE inside market feed's count was less than 1000, the remaining shares could be purchased with the guarantee that no automatically placed refreshing order existed at that price. A lot of the time in thin stocks, when an NYSE floor broker order was acting as support or resistance, I could be the first to react to the level breaking by noticing the floor broker's order decrimenting to less than 1000. Now, he can ony show 100, meaning it's harder to know when his order would end. They would still game it before, but there was a slight slight edge in certain situations by realizing that the floor broker who was driving a stock down with a 1000 share display size reserve order was now only showing 800 - an amount that cannot contain a resserve - and thus those 800 shares he's showing are the last of the 40,000, or whatever. Reacting to that quickly meant I could squeeze people like you who don't know what I'm talking about, or place their stops based on chart lines without understanding in depth the order process (I don't mean that out of arrogance; I mean I'm a scalper and understanding these concepts, or noticing them, is my "edge" if you will) of how floor broker orders worked. Now daytraders have slightly less information from which we could purchase under 1000 shares in high probability situations. The game is the same, it wont' really make a difference for me. The prints contain the most important information, but for calculating risk/reward in scalps where leaning on orders is as strategical element of the trade, it is now slightly more difficult. Most the time, if there was a large reserve order and it suddenly showed less than 1000 shares, it would be too late to take it - but a good amount of the time I would notice that and others wouldn't, especially in thin stocks.
 
Quote from NotyoBabyDad:

You are seeing something but you are wrong about what it is. Where did this information you are posting come from? Who told you this?
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I am 100% sure that specialist or floor broker reserve orders are not seen in the NYOB, so if you are claiming that that what I just said is wrong, you should do some more research and you will see yourself that what I'm saying is completely true, and furthermore, that nothing else would make sense. I can try to find some examples from my camtasia files of my trading, if I find the time. At least two-three times/day, I make decisions about risking my money based on the principles outlined above.
 
like speculatus said, nyse does NOT have a level II. that is a nasdaq term. i have no idea what you are talking about. a level II is where you see all the market makers.
 
Quote from jumper:

like speculatus said, nyse does NOT have a level II. that is a nasdaq term. i have no idea what you are talking about. a level II is where you see all the market makers.
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Wow, sounds like a good old fashioned debate is breaking out here. Seems a number of traders have differing opinions on this topic of 'Floor broker iceberg/reserve orders' and 'NYSE level II'.

Here's my two cents:

On the topic of the reserve orders, seems to me that all though your slight edge in detecting when a reserve is complete FXWill may be impacted, the principles still remain the same. I would just say, if there is a discrepancy between the number of shares being displayed in the consolidated inside quote for NYSE (on your montage) and the NYOB, then there is floor broker activity. If the price level stays, well then it looks like you have yourself a refresher. You know what to do from there.

On the topic of "Level II". Neither the NYSE or Nasdaq ' have' a "Level II". What is being referred to here is a quote montage which is a product of your data feed provider and software provider combined. If you are using a direct access platform your provider may show you various combinations of depth of market information based on what data feeds they are using to power their platform and what they have decided to include in the montage they show you. Any way you slice it, you are seeing a QUOTE MONTAGE built by your software vendor. The term Level II has just become common industry parlance for a montage that shows depth of market for various execution venues for both NYSE listed and Nasdaq listed secuities. And yes this includes Nasdaq Totalview.

Cheers,

Auto
 
Quote from AutoMate:

Wow, sounds like a good old fashioned debate is breaking out here. Seems a number of traders have differing opinions on this topic of 'Floor broker iceberg/reserve orders' and 'NYSE level II'.

Here's my two cents:

On the topic of the reserve orders, seems to me that all though your slight edge in detecting when a reserve is complete FXWill may be impacted, the principles still remain the same. I would just say, if there is a discrepancy between the number of shares being displayed in the consolidated inside quote for NYSE (on your montage) and the NYOB, then there is floor broker activity. If the price level stays, well then it looks like you have yourself a refresher. You know what to do from there.

On the topic of "Level II". Neither the NYSE or Nasdaq ' have' a "Level II". What is being referred to here is a quote montage which is a product of your data feed provider and software provider combined. If you are using a direct access platform your provider may show you various combinations of depth of market information based on what data feeds they are using to power their platform and what they have decided to include in the montage they show you. Any way you slice it, you are seeing a QUOTE MONTAGE built by your software vendor. The term Level II has just become common industry parlance for a montage that shows depth of market for various execution venues for both NYSE listed and Nasdaq listed secuities. And yes this includes Nasdaq Totalview.

Cheers,

Auto
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sounds like you haven't been in the industry very long. level II nasdaq terminology. nasdaq offered level I, II and III quotes since before i started trading over 10 yrs ago.

if you google nasdaq level II quotes, you will see what i'm talking about. it has in fact originated from nasdaq. originally, it was for viewing market makers only before ecns came around.
 
Quote from FXTraderWill:

I am 100% sure that specialist or floor broker reserve orders are not seen in the NYOB, so if you are claiming that that what I just said is wrong, you should do some more research and you will see yourself that what I'm saying is completely true, and furthermore, that nothing else would make sense. I can try to find some examples from my camtasia files of my trading, if I find the time. At least two-three times/day, I make decisions about risking my money based on the principles outlined above.
More...




I was a floor broker for 6 years. I know how it works but will not post it on a chat board. Your info is based on assumption and was just curious on to how you came to your conclusion.
 
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