NY Court Reinstates Ex-GS Programmer's Criminal Conviction

You better tell Red Hat they can't be selling their improvement to Linux then! The idea that open source software can't be used as a competent of any commercial use software is absurd. Does it have to be attributed, absolutely. Does GS failing to attribute internal use software justify an employee stealing it? Hardly.

It depends on the license. You are just assuming that they are abiding by the terms of the open sources licenses while I am not assuming that. In fact, considering that people at Goldman Sachs think it is okay to purposefully delete attribution headers of open source software (as proved in court), there is no reason to think that they would abide by any of the open source agreements in these packages. There is definitely open source code that exists that specifically states that it cannot be used for commercial purposes. And there is some open source code that says you can use it however you want to, as long as there is attribution. And note that Goldman Sachs is guilty at least on this last count.

Does an employee who betters an open source package and then wants to contribute that code back to that open source project sound like an individual that should be prosecuted? Seeing as I do not have 100% of the details, my inclination is to side with this individual rather than Goldman Sachs which has proven to be less than "pristine" when it comes to morality.
 
Bottom line is he did admit copying the code and as with all large companies he did sign a confidentially agreement, which prevented him from copying the code thus he is guilty even if he did have pristine intentions.
 
It depends on the license. You are just assuming that they are abiding by the terms of the open sources licenses while I am not assuming that. In fact, considering that people at Goldman Sachs think it is okay to purposefully delete attribution headers of open source software (as proved in court), there is no reason to think that they would abide by any of the open source agreements in these packages. There is definitely open source code that exists that specifically states that it cannot be used for commercial purposes. And there is some open source code that says you can use it however you want to, as long as there is attribution. And note that Goldman Sachs is guilty at least on this last count.

Does an employee who betters an open source package and then wants to contribute that code back to that open source project sound like an individual that should be prosecuted? Seeing as I do not have 100% of the details, my inclination is to side with this individual rather than Goldman Sachs which has proven to be less than "pristine" when it comes to morality.
He's not being prosecuted for that (releasing the GS source code to open source), first of all. He's being prosecuted for stealing GS source code. And you absolutely do not have the right to release proprietary code developed on a company's dime to open source just because you have some lofty ideas about open source (again, he didn't release anything to open source, he simply stole the code for his own/future employer's use).
Our legal system doesn't work on a "they stripped out the open source headers, I get to steal the software" basis. It's easy to be some kind of Robinhood fan until you're footing the bill to develop software that's stolen and Robinhood turns out to just be another selfish a-hole.
If the developers of the open source software you allege was "stolen" by GS have a problem they're free to press charges and file civil suit. Until then there is no false eqivilancy with an employee who stole source code, and GS possibly (but we'll assume they did because we don't like them) using open source in violation of the license.
And the guy is still a world class idiot to have taken this code, especially if as you seem to think it was mostly open source to begin with.
 
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You are misunderstanding what I am saying. I never said he was prosecuted for that. The GS source code that he "stole", consisted of a lot of open source code that was "stolen" by GS in the first place (by stripping the attribution headers). I agree that you do not have the right to release proprietary code developed on a company's dime, however you do not also have the right to steal open source code, strip the attribution headers, and call it your own. If you think this guy is guilty, than Goldman Sachs as an organization is just as guilty. I hope those open source developers do file a civil suit but the odds are they have no money to do so and they are unaware they are being taken advantage of by Goldman Sachs.

Frankly, I don't understand anyone who would defend Goldman Sachs in this situation. They are a reprehensible organization. By the way, Goldman Sachs shouldn't even exist now but thanks to our idiotic government, they got bailed out.
 
You are misunderstanding what I am saying. I never said he was prosecuted for that. The GS source code that he "stole", consisted of a lot of open source code that was "stolen" by GS in the first place (by stripping the attribution headers). I agree that you do not have the right to release proprietary code developed on a company's dime, however you do not also have the right to steal open source code, strip the attribution headers, and call it your own. If you think this guy is guilty, than Goldman Sachs as an organization is just as guilty. I hope those open source developers do file a civil suit but the odds are they have no money to do so and they are unaware they are being taken advantage of by Goldman Sachs.

Frankly, I don't understand anyone who would defend Goldman Sachs in this situation. They are a reprehensible organization. By the way, Goldman Sachs shouldn't even exist now but thanks to our idiotic government, they got bailed out.
I'm a guy who pays people to develop software for my company. We use open source software in some of what we do (in accordance with their licenses). I'll defend the right of any company like mine, including GS, to take legal action against someone who steals code they and other employees of mine developed on my dime. I'll push back vigorously on the incorrect concept that I am somehow obligated to release my proprietary source code to open simply because I incorporate some open source software in it. In fact I'm not aware of a single major piece of open source code that lists that as a requirement in its license, can you list some examples of that? And I'll call complete and utter BS that there is some kind of equivalence between the damage done by me removing open source headers on software used internally (what, do I want to trick my own programmers into thinking this didn't come from open source so that I can accomplish what nefarious thing exactly?) and an employee stealing code and taking it to a competitor. Finally, it's clear from this thread that there are significant misperceptions out there about what is and isn't included in the vast majority of open source licences, hopefully we've cleared that up.
By the way, here in the United States your or my personal feelings about a bailout that happened years ago or that a company is "reprehensible" has absolutely no bearing on the legality of an employee stealing from them in clear violation of the law and the contract they signed with the company. Thank goodness!
 
I am just basing my opinion on this piece and other things I've read on this case:

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2013/09/michael-lewis-goldman-sachs-programmer

The part that stood out to me was that at least some of the code that he developed were modifications of open source code. And then Goldman Sachs claimed ownership of this code without crediting the original open source developer. That is both illegal and greedy. Ideally, somebody should convict Goldman Sachs employees for this practice.

Here is the relevant section:



I am trusting that this information is true. And if it is true, then either every single Goldman Sachs employee involved in this practice should be jailed, not just this Russian scapegoat. As far as I can tell, this case has no merit and the only way this Russian programmer could be convicted is if the jury was rigged or if the defense was incompetent.

I think the whole open source/GNU licensing is taken on good faith unfortunately. Look at Linksys for similar case of not giving a fuk.
 
I'm a guy who pays people to develop software for my company. We use open source software in some of what we do (in accordance with their licenses). I'll defend the right of any company like mine, including GS, to take legal action against someone who steals code they and other employees of mine developed on my dime. I'll push back vigorously on the incorrect concept that I am somehow obligated to release my proprietary source code to open simply because I incorporate some open source software in it. In fact I'm not aware of a single major piece of open source code that lists that as a requirement in its license, can you list some examples of that? And I'll call complete and utter BS that there is some kind of equivalence between the damage done by me removing open source headers on software used internally (what, do I want to trick my own programmers into thinking this didn't come from open source so that I can accomplish what nefarious thing exactly?) and an employee stealing code and taking it to a competitor. Finally, it's clear from this thread that there are significant misperceptions out there about what is and isn't included in the vast majority of open source licences, hopefully we've cleared that up.
By the way, here in the United States your or my personal feelings about a bailout that happened years ago or that a company is "reprehensible" has absolutely no bearing on the legality of an employee stealing from them in clear violation of the law and the contract they signed with the company. Thank goodness!

After doing some more research, I was incorrect in that the term "open source" inherently implies that the source can be used for commercial purposes (example discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9004908). There are open source licenses where if you distribute a product based on that source, then any modifications of the source that you made have to be published along with that product (i.e., GPL2 https://opensource.org/licenses/gpl-2.0.php).

Did you read the Vanity Fair article? I'll give you another quote from it:

Our system of justice was a poor tool for digging out a rich truth. What was really needed, it seemed to me, was for Serge Aleynikov to be forced to explain what he had done, and why, to people able to understand the explanation and judge it. Goldman Sachs had never asked him to explain himself, and the F.B.I. had not sought help from someone who actually knew anything at all about computers or the high-frequency-trading business. And so over two nights, in a private room of a Wall Street restaurant, I convened a kind of second trial. To serve as both jury and prosecution, I invited half a dozen people intimately familiar with Goldman Sachs, high-frequency trading, and computer programming.

All of these people were authorities on our abstruse new stock market; several had written high-frequency code; one had actually developed software for Goldman’s high-frequency traders. All were men. Among them, they’d grown up in four different countries, but all now lived in the United States and worked on Wall Street. Like most Wall Street people, they were naturally cynical, of both Goldman Sachs and Serge Aleynikov. They’d followed his case in the newspapers and noted the shiver it had sent down the spines of Wall Street’s software developers. Until Serge was sent to jail for doing it, Wall Street programmers routinely took code they had worked on when they left for new jobs. “A guy got put in jail for taking something no one understood,” as one of them put it. “Every tech programmer out there got the message: Take code and you could go to jail. It was huge.”

Still, they assumed that if Serge had been sentenced to eight years in jail he must have done something wrong. They just hadn’t bothered to figure out what that was. Now they would.

...[deleted]...

His new jurors began, interestingly, by asking him lots of personal questions. They wanted to figure out what kind of guy he was. They took an interest, for example, in his job-market history and noted that his behavior was pretty consistently that of a geek who had more interest in his work than how much money he made from it. They established fairly quickly—how, I do not know—that he was not just smart but seriously gifted. “These guys are usually smart in one small area,” one of them later explained to me. “For a technologist to be so totally dominant in so many areas is just really, really unusual.”

They then began to probe his career at Goldman Sachs. They were surprised to learn that he had “super-user status” inside Goldman, which is to say he was one of a handful of people (roughly 45, in a firm with more than 32,000 employees) who could log in as an administrator to the system. Such privileged access would have enabled him, at any time, to buy a cheap USB flash drive, plug it into his terminal, and take all of Goldman’s computer code, without anyone having any idea that he had done so. That fact alone didn’t prove anything to them. As one pointed out to Serge directly, lots of thieves are sloppy and careless; just because he was sloppy and careless didn’t mean he was not a thief. On the other hand, they all agreed, there wasn’t anything the least bit suspicious, much less nefarious, about the manner in which he had taken what he had taken. Using a subversion repository to store code and deleting your bash history were common practices, especially if you typed your password into command lines. In short, Serge had not behaved like a man trying to cover his tracks. One of those assembled stated the obvious: “If deleting the bash history was so clever and devious, why had Goldman ever found out he’d taken anything?”

The story the F.B.I. found so unconvincing—that Serge had taken the files because he thought he might later like to parse the open-source code contained within—made complete sense to the new jurors. As Goldman hadn’t permitted him to release his debugged or improved code back to the public—possibly in violation of the original free licenses, which often stated that improvements must be publicly shared—the only way to get his hands on these was to take the Goldman code. That he had taken, in the bargain, some code that wasn’t open source, which happened to be contained in the same files as the open-source code, surprised no one. Grabbing a bunch of files that contained both open-source and non-open-source code was an efficient, quick, and dirty way to collect the open-source code, even if the open-source code was the only part that interested him. It would have made far less sense for him to hunt around the Internet for the open-source code he wanted, as it was scattered all over cyberspace. It was entirely plausible to them that Serge’s interest was confined to the open-source code because that was the general-purpose code that might be re-purposed later. The Goldman proprietary code was written specifically for Goldman’s platform; it would have been of little use in any new system he wished to build. (Two small pieces of code Serge had sent into Teza’s computers before his arrest both came with open-source licenses.) “Even if he had taken Goldman’s whole platform, it would have been faster and better for him to write the new platform himself,” said one juror.

Several times he surprised them with his answers. They were all shocked, for instance, that from the day he arrived at Goldman he had been able to send Goldman’s source code to himself weekly without anyone at Goldman saying a word to him about it. “At Citadel if you install a USB drive into your workstation, someone is standing next to you within five minutes, asking you what the hell you are doing,” said one. Most were surprised by how little he had taken in relation to the whole: eight megabytes in a platform that consisted of an estimated one gigabyte of code. The most cynical among them were surprised mostly by what he had not taken.

“Did you take the strats?” asked one (meaning Goldman’s trading strategies).

“No,” said Serge. That was one thing the prosecutors hadn’t accused him of.

“But that’s the secret sauce, if there is one,” said the juror. “If you’re going to take something, take the strats.”

“I wasn’t interested in the strats,” said Serge.

“But that’s like stealing the jewelry box without the jewels,” said another juror.

“You had super-user status!” said the first. “You could easily have taken the strats. Why didn’t you?”

“To me, the technology really is not interesting,” said Serge.

“You weren’t interested in how they made hundreds of millions of dollars?” asked someone else.

“Not really,” said Serge. “It’s all one big gamble, one way or another.”

Because they had seen it before, in other programmer types, they were not totally shocked by his indifference to Goldman’s trading, or by how far Goldman had kept him from the action. Talking to a programmer type about the trading business was a bit like talking to the house plumber at work in the basement about the card game the Mafia don was running upstairs. “He knew so little about the business context,” one of the jurors said upon leaving the informal trial. “You’d have to try to know as little as he did.” Another added, “He knew as much as they wanted him to know about how they made money, which was virtually nothing. He wasn’t there for very long. He came in with no context. And he spent all of his time troubleshooting.”

At least some part of the reason he remained oblivious to the nature of the trading business, they all noticed, was that his heart was elsewhere. “I think passion plays a big role,” said a juror who himself had spent his entire career writing code. “The moment he started talking about coding his eyes lit up.” Another added, “The fact that he kept trying to work on open-source shit even while he was at Goldman says something about the guy.”

They didn’t all agree that what Serge had taken had no value, either to him or to Goldman. But what value it might have had in creating a new system would have been trivial and indirect. “I can guarantee you this: he did not steal code to use it on some other system,” one said, and none of the others disagreed. For my part I didn’t fully understand why some parts of Goldman’s system might not be useful in some other system. “Goldman’s code base is like buying a really old house,” one of the jurors explained. “And you take the trouble to soup it up. But it still has the problems of a really old house. Teza [the new high-frequency-trading firm for which Serge left Goldman] was going to build a new house, on new land. Why would you take 100-year-old copper pipes and put them in my new house? It isn’t that they couldn’t be used; it’s that the amount of trouble involved in making it useful is ridiculous.” A third added, “It’s way easier to start from scratch.” (Their conviction grew even stronger when they learned—later, as Serge failed to mention it at the dinners—that the new system Serge planned to create was likely to be written in a different computer language than the Goldman code.)

This hardly sounds like an individual that deserves 7 years in jail. More like someone who is ignorant and naive.

Again, I restate that I cannot believe anyone would side with Goldman Sachs in this matter as they come across as antiquated and paranoid. If anything, Goldman Sachs is the entity that needs to be prosecuted. And its past behavior is a basis for suspicion, regardless of what you say.
 
After doing some more research, I was incorrect in that the term "open source" inherently implies that the source can be used for commercial purposes (example discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9004908). There are open source licenses where if you distribute a product based on that source, then any modifications of the source that you made have to be published along with that product (i.e., GPL2 https://opensource.org/licenses/gpl-2.0.php).

Did you read the Vanity Fair article? I'll give you another quote from it:



This hardly sounds like an individual that deserves 7 years in jail. More like someone who is ignorant and naive.

Again, I restate that I cannot believe anyone would side with Goldman Sachs in this matter as they come across as antiquated and paranoid. If anything, Goldman Sachs is the entity that needs to be prosecuted. And its past behavior is a basis for suspicion, regardless of what you say.
Reading the article is actually far scarier for a business owner in my position. To wit "Until Serge was sent to jail for doing it, Wall Street programmers routinely took code they had worked on when they left for new jobs." That's complete and utter crap. If I pay you to develop code for me it belongs to me and does not belong to you, both by common law and the contract you signed with me and everyone in the software industry knows that. Who the hell do these guys think they are, getting paid by a company to produce a product and then believing they own it and can take it wherever they want? Does the GM factory worker get to take some parts home from the factory floor because he built them and everyone knows GM took bailout money and are evil?
It goes on to say "Every tech programmer out there got the message: Take code and you could go to jail. It was huge." Awsome! If they hadn't gotten that fundamental message yet then it's about damn time they did! Absolutely no sympathy for them doing something that is so clearly in violation of the law and their contract with the company, regardless of who the company is or how nice a guy the defendant is. You could say this guy was being made an example of and I'd say absolutely, and clearly someone needed to be made an example of in this industry if they really all thought that stealing code with impunity was OK.

"As Goldman hadn’t permitted him to release his debugged or improved code back to the public—possibly in violation of the original free licenses, which often stated that improvements must be publicly shared". Again, this isn't what any open source license says at all. I have yet to see this mythical license which "often states" that, and if Vanity Fair has it they would have listed it instead of that purposely vague language. Lets use your GPL2 license as an example. First, internal use by a company isn't covered in GPL2 at all, it's triggered when you distribute it. Second, GPL2 is concerned about a third party copyrighting what was open source so that future users can't use it, and about third parties modifying open source with a buggy mod that then unfairly reflects on the original product. You fundamentally misunderstand the entire concept of open source if you think it's about requiring everyone who uses it to re-release their software built around its source code to open source. I'm pretty sure both you and the Vanity Fair people realize this, it just doesn't sound as sympathetic and they're counting on most readers not being familiar with the intricacies of this license.

They then go on to say that what the guy stole clearly wasn't really that valuable, he left more valuable stuff, his intent wasn't to defraud GS... That may all be true, let's give the guy the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure he's a nice guy. I'm sure the GS guy's are sharks and a-holes. I'm sure lots of other guys did what he did and got away with it.
All that in no way absolves him of violating the law he violated which couldn't be more obvious and cut and dry. As I've maintained from the beginning of this thread, the guy is a complete idiot who was paid a healthy sum by GS to do something for them and somehow felt entitled to steal that despite the fact that thinking about it for about 5 seconds would make it blindingly obvious to even the most obtuse geek that what he was doing was illegal and violated his contract. Is 7 years in jail appropriate? Probably not. Is painting him as some kind of blameless Robin Hood hero who deserves no punishment appropriate? Most definitely not. When you sink a significant sum into software developers to build software for you, I'm sure you'll come around to that viewpoint which happens to align nicely with U.S. law.
 
You fundamentally misunderstand the entire concept of open source if you think it's about requiring everyone who uses it to re-release their software built around its source code to open source.

I never said that.

Regardless of whether you are a business owner or not, it seems like you could use a good injection of compassion.

Again, if this guy is guilty of anything (which is debatable), then Goldman Sachs is guilty of so much worse. If the article is true, then his intent was not malicious, unlike many things that Goldman Sachs has done and will do. Typical that the little guy goes to jail and Goldman Sachs gets a slap on the hand for all its dealings. A true capitalistic society would have allowed Goldman Sachs to fail.
 
I never said that.

Regardless of whether you are a business owner or not, it seems like you could use a good injection of compassion.

Again, if this guy is guilty of anything (which is debatable), then Goldman Sachs is guilty of so much worse. If the article is true, then his intent was not malicious, unlike many things that Goldman Sachs has done and will do. Typical that the little guy goes to jail and Goldman Sachs gets a slap on the hand for all its dealings. A true capitalistic society would have allowed Goldman Sachs to fail.
It's not debatable at all, he was convicted in a court of law! My compassion is nearly unlimited for those who deserve it. Highly paid software developers who think it's OK to steal code from their employers are pretty far down the list of deserving people. When you're feeding your family based on software you pay your coders to write for you, I'm guessing you won't find the "compassion" in you to let them steal that code at will.
 
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