nuggets of truth

[ZZZzzzzzzz]

If so, how do you decide whether a father selling his daughter is morally wrong? I'm not saying it isn't, I just want to know how someone that is an atheist decides.

Actually it is very easy for a sane and logical atheist to decide.

He asks himself:

If I were a daughter, would I want to be sold by my father?

Unless he logically responds with an affirmative, then selling a daughter is wrong in most if not almost all cases, including his own unless there are very unusual mitigating circumstances.

If in their actions, all human beings atheist or theist or agnostic applied the golden rule, we would likely see peace on earth, no crime, etc.

Murders don't want to be killed, thieves don't like to be robbed, people who cheat don't like to be cheated, etc.

Quote from drmarkan:

I know you were being sarcastic. How does that diminish the malice behind it? The way in which the thread creator was attacked for what looks to be an attempt at facetiousness says it all.

When I noted the inferiority complex, I am observing the reason for one's behavior. It is not name-calling. Name-calling would be something like calling Republicans, "Repugniclans". If you need to see an example of that, go to your first post in this thread.

Back to your post. I am going to assume that you do not believe in a higher being (I could be wrong, but it certainly seems that way). If so, how do you decide whether a father selling his daughter is morally wrong? I'm not saying it isn't, I just want to know how someone that is an atheist decides.

 

[drmarkan]

Quote from vhehn:

So are you saying an atheist would not know that it is a bad thing to sell his daughter? He certainly would not know its wrong from reading the bible because the bible condones it.

I am not saying they would not know. I am asking how they do know. I am not asking for some simple explanation like everyone should know. What ideas do atheists believe in that help them come to the determination that it is wrong.

 

[drmarkan]

Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

If so, how do you decide whether a father selling his daughter is morally wrong? I'm not saying it isn't, I just want to know how someone that is an atheist decides.

Actually it is very easy for a sane and logical atheist to decide.

He asks himself:

If I were a daughter, would I want to be sold by my father?

Unless he logically responds with an affirmative, then selling a daughter is wrong in most if not almost all cases, including his own unless there are very unusual mitigating circumstances.

If in their actions, all human beings atheist or theist or agnostic applied the golden rule, we would likely see peace on earth, no crime, etc.

Murders don't want to be killed, thieves don't like to be robbed, people who cheat don't like to be cheated, etc.

The origin of the golden rule is religion.

 

[ZZZzzzzzzz]

That is your claim.

I believe the real origin of the golden rule is logic and common sense as it is available to the human mind free of emotional problems.

No, I am not an atheist.

I believe God gave man logic and common sense...which is not something organized religion generally offers in its training. Religion is dogma, logic and common sense need no dogma.

Think of it like this, for a child, they don't have a developed mind for common sense and logic, they need rules and "commandments" from parents to stay out of trouble. They need fear of punishment to do the right thing.

When and if they mature, (some never do) they can understand the logic and common sense behind their childhood training, and do the right thing simply because the right thing in most cases will be common sense and logical, and following the golden rule. A developed human being does what is right not for fear of punishment, but because it is right and in accordance with God's natural law.

Oh, and some never mature....so they continue to need some "commandments" in order to do the right thing, they need continual fear of punishment to keep them moving in a reasonable, logical, and common sense manner.

The golden rule doesn't come from religion, it is hard wired into our systems if we pay attention...as no one has to be taught that pain is bad and not desirable. Only the mentally ill seek pleasure in pain, as it is the normal human response to recoil from pain.

No sane murderer wants to be murdered, no robber robbed, no cheater cheated, no liar lied to, no rapist raped...

All common sense and logical experiences...

Quote from drmarkan:

The origin of the golden rule is religion.

 

[tradermaji]

Quote from drmarkan:

If so, how do you decide whether a father selling his daughter is morally wrong? I'm not saying it isn't, I just want to know how someone that is an atheist decides.

Because it is written in the BAD BOOK that it is okay to sell one's daughter... so it must be immoral.

 

[drmarkan]

Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

That is your claim.

I believe the real origin of the golden rule is logic and common sense as it is available to the human mind free of emotional problems.

No, I am not an atheist.

I believe God gave man logic and common sense...which is not something organized religion generally offers in its training. Religion is dogma, logic and common sense need no dogma.

Think of it like this, for a child, they don't have a developed mind for common sense and logic, they need rules and "commandments" from parents to stay out of trouble. They need fear of punishment to do the right thing.

When and if they mature, (some never do) they can understand the logic and common sense behind their childhood training, and do the right thing simply because the right thing in most cases will be common sense and logical, and following the golden rule. A developed human being does what is right not for fear of punishment, but because it is right and in accordance with God's natural law.

Oh, and some never mature....so they continue to need some "commandments" in order to do the right thing, they need continual fear of punishment to keep them moving in a reasonable, logical, and common sense manner.

The golden rule doesn't come from religion, it is hard wired into our systems if we pay attention...as no one has to be taught that pain is bad and not desirable. Only the mentally ill seek pleasure in pain, as it is the normal human response to recoil from pain.

No sane murderer wants to be murdered, no robber robbed, no cheater cheated, no liar lied to, no rapist raped...

All common sense and logical experiences...

Well I can't argue that it is a possibility that it is hard-wired as you say in a person's mind. However, religious texts are where we find the first articulations of this idea. To me, that makes a strong argument for it being of religious origin. Unfortunately, to test your idea is an impossiblity at this point because religion's influence has been around for so long and reaches everyone. There really is no group of people that you could study to analyze this idea in this day and age.

 

[ZZZzzzzzzz]

Human mind is older than religious books...

Rejection of pain, not wanting to be killed, lied to, robbed, etc. is not new and people who are not exposed to any religion feel the exact same way worldwide.

You take a group of children at birth, isolate them from any religious training, and they will all reject pain, being killed, robbed, lied to, cheated, etc.

Quote from drmarkan:

Well I can't argue that it is a possibility that it is hard-wired as you say in a person's mind. However, religious texts are where we find the first articulations of this idea. To me, that makes a strong argument for it being of religious origin. Unfortunately, to test your idea is an impossiblity at this point because religion's influence has been around for so long and reaches everyone. There really is no group of people that you could study to analyze this idea in this day and age.

 

[I am...]

Quote from drmarkan:

The origin of the golden rule is religion.

Yes because religion is about separating truth from illusion. These can not be reconciled. Attempts to reconcile truth and illusion are made in the name of "religion", and the fallout can get ugly.

Before you can love your neighbor as yourself, you must first know yourself. The truth is, you are love itself. All else is an illusion. When you know yourself as love itself, you can love your neighbor. But if you've made up some other identity about yourself that is not love, then you do not love yourself. And you will not love your neighbor any more than you love yourself.

Bodies are the fallout of an attempt to reconcile love with limits.

Since you've made love into bodies, you have been merciless to yourself as love. For bodies are limits, and love is unlimited. And if you identify yourself with a body, you will limit your love. In so doing, you will kill yourself and your neighbor along with you...treating him mercilessly, as you have treated yourself.

Die, then, to what you have made of love, and heal your perceptions about your true self: love..."that ye may live".

Behavior follows perception. All your perceptions are about who you think you are. If you are a body, you are what's left of love after it's been flogged, beaten, whipped and crucified. Can you treat your neighbor better than yourself?

The good news is you are not bodies, so it is easy to "die" to that concept...and you remain as you were Created: love unlimited.

Truth and illusion are irreconcilable. Magic is the attempt to reconcile the irreconcilable. Much of what you think of as "religion" is magic...and it's gods are idols. You can spot such "religions" whenever there is an attempt to make bodies and love both real at the same time. Either one or the other is true, and the other is false, for the body is an attempt to limit love.

The way, then, to love your neighbor as yourself is to use bodies to inform those who think they are bodies...that this is not so.

Go ahead and try it. Turn to your neighbor and say, "You are not a body". Those identifying with a body may "attack" you. And if you are still identifying with a body, you can be attacked. But if you perceive yourself as love with certainty, you cannot be attacked, for love is a power unopposed. It is power itself. It is the only power, and is completely unopposed.

If you see your neighbor as a body, you are belittling him, having belittled yourself first. Closer to the truth, you are attacking him and yourself. When you love yourself, you do not see bodies as such. You see only what is...and what is, is much more beautiful.

So to reinterpret:

Love = your neighbor ( - body) = yourself = freedom

Jesus

 

[I am...]

Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

Human mind is older than religious books...

Mind is older than human mind, for before human mind: I am...

Religion is about separating truth from illusion, so it is at least as old as the human "mind" because "human" is an illusion and illusions don't think.

Mind is on the "right", human mind inclines to the "left". The "righteous" know of unity. The "leftists" know only of separation...knowing nothing.

Bodies are the "proof" the lefties are "right": that mind can be separated. Thinking they are right, they are out of their right minds, left outside of the Kingdom of God.

Lefties make bodies because they belive they have the right to bear arms. With arms, they attack themselves and each other...multiplying unlimited supplies of arms to make up for unlimited "rights" they have wronged. What's left are bodies: Prisons and pawns for tyrants.

Good news! Lefties have the "right" to remain as they were created: One Mind, under God, united and free, safe and sane...with liberty and justice for all.

Give yourselves freedom, or give yourselves death!

Jesus

 

[drmarkan]

Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

Human mind is older than religious books...

Rejection of pain, not wanting to be killed, lied to, robbed, etc. is not new and people who are not exposed to any religion feel the exact same way worldwide.

You take a group of children at birth, isolate them from any religious training, and they will all reject pain, being killed, robbed, lied to, cheated, etc.

I agree that people will reject pain and not want to be killed. The question is whether they can decide that it is morally wrong for themselves. Fight or flight is definitely hard-wired into the mind of everyone as an instinct because they do not want to feel pain. This is different than deciding that it is ethically and/or morally wrong to do these things.