Now the gay Evangelical pulls a "Jimmy Swaggart
- Thread starter ZZZzzzzzzz
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Quote from traderNik:
Sure. Murder, rape, torture, theft. These are behaviours which are universally condemned.
Homosexuality is mostly condemned by Christians/Muslim zealots and 'heterosexual' men who have had feelings of attraction to other men and are having extreme difficulty dealing with it.
Actually, no. This issue is all about liberty and freedom. It is about the radical Christian right attempting to impose their faith-based agenda on everyone else, and everyone else standing up and saying that we value liberty and freedom over a policy informed by a faith which we do not share.
I'll let the PC dig pass. I've tried as hard as I can to voice my disgust for PC multi-culti 'culture of victimization' politics.
I do know what you mean, but there's really no subject that's off the table for debate. The radical lefties to whom you refer are just as marginal as the radical Christians. However, any subject which the religious right tries to debate in terms of their faith-based beliefs will ultimately prove undebatable, just like the existence of God is for them. It's interesting that the radical Christians have taken to objecting to the left by saying that their beliefs are dismissed simply because they're Christians. Actually, yes. We simply don't have that unyielding, magically known belief in Jesus Christ as the Saviour of all Men and the One who died so that our Sins could be expiated. It's actually quite weird that anyone would think that their faith-based beliefs would be accepted by those who don't have the faith.
This paragraph might seem, to someone who doesn't know you, like an attempt to cloud the issue. The simple fact is this - many people think that homosexuality is a perversion, yet support anyone's right to act in a homosexual manner, for idealistic reasons. Whether or not politicians publicly support homosexuals while privately condemning their behaviour doesn't have anything to do with whether or not 'all democrats celebrate homosexuals', which was your original assertion. That assertion is obviously untrue. To suggest that democrats who privately feel homosexuality is a perversion support any individual's right to make their own choices strictly to be in step with the party does a great disservice to both Democrats and Republicans who value the ideal of freedom. It is quite puzzling that you would think you know the thoughts of every democrat who is in favour of gay rights. But then... maybe not, as radical Christians believe that they have all sorts of knowledge for which no proof is needed.
I hear you, but I don't think it is quite as simple as you see it. Morality, as informed by religious belief, has always been the prime source of law. Take the civil rights crusade. Ministers and people of faith took leading roles. Now the issue of homosexuality is driving a wedge between many Christians and those who feel as you do. I don't really see it as an issue of imposing one's faith however. The vast majority of Christians are not concerned about what homosexuals do in private. They do feel a need to preserve traditional values, whether it is concerning marriage, what their children are taught in school or how freely they are allowed to voice their relgiious objections to homosexual conduct. All these are under attack from the gay agenda.
Something that always perplexes me is how people who are arguing for maintaining the laws, traditions and standards that we as a country observed for 250 years can be reviled for trying to force their views on others. It seems to me that it is the people driving the gay agenda who are trying to force their views on everybody else. Most of us would happily not think about gays or gay issues if left alone. The disputes begin when a small but wealthy and influential group tries to shove its radical agenda down everyone else's throat by the force of government. Aren't they the ones you should be concerned about?
How about this:
Why don't the Christians outlaw divorce among Christians, make cheating on their spouses a punishable jail-time offense, etc....
Why not have the Christians deal with their own shit first and foremost, shit that impacts their own "family" before they focus on the gays....
This is why many liberals look at the so called "Christians" (who spend so much time focusing on others while their own house is out of order) and think they are full of shit when they try to impose their belief systems on others, when they don't even follow their own chosen belief systems....
Why don't the Christians outlaw divorce among Christians, make cheating on their spouses a punishable jail-time offense, etc....
Why not have the Christians deal with their own shit first and foremost, shit that impacts their own "family" before they focus on the gays....
This is why many liberals look at the so called "Christians" (who spend so much time focusing on others while their own house is out of order) and think they are full of shit when they try to impose their belief systems on others, when they don't even follow their own chosen belief systems....
Somebody has to say it, so I guess I will. I think that homosexuality has been around longer than any type of organized religion, right? So has theft, rape, and murder, etc. I see why societies over the millennia have cracked down on the latter, but why the crack down on one's "God given orientation"? Yes, if we believe in God as the Creator, did he not create those with homosexual feelings as well? (I know this might belong on the amputee thread, but)
And, the "sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman" ? How many milliseconds of our time on earth has that even been in existence (marriage of any sort).?
"Going to lead to bestiality and incest" - come on now, that sounds a bit like "Reefer Madness" back in prohibition days.
And what exactly is the "Gay agenda" - unless you mean the same thing as the "Civil rights agenda" of 1960's, before which, "God" had decided that blacks were not to be treated equal. Not that long ago that a guy named Lincoln had an "agenda" as well, something to do with slavery, some of you might remember reading about it.
Many countries that we are "supposed" to be against, take part in the very thing we're talking about here..."keeping certain groups in their place" (to put it nicely). Women must be covered at all times, cannot drive a car (probably a good idea in some cases, LOL)...but come on, we deplore those antiquated values like the caste system and unfair treatment between people, don't we? Or is it just for those we agree with?
Dr. Seuss stories come to mind.
c
And, the "sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman" ? How many milliseconds of our time on earth has that even been in existence (marriage of any sort).?
"Going to lead to bestiality and incest" - come on now, that sounds a bit like "Reefer Madness" back in prohibition days.
And what exactly is the "Gay agenda" - unless you mean the same thing as the "Civil rights agenda" of 1960's, before which, "God" had decided that blacks were not to be treated equal. Not that long ago that a guy named Lincoln had an "agenda" as well, something to do with slavery, some of you might remember reading about it.
Many countries that we are "supposed" to be against, take part in the very thing we're talking about here..."keeping certain groups in their place" (to put it nicely). Women must be covered at all times, cannot drive a car (probably a good idea in some cases, LOL)...but come on, we deplore those antiquated values like the caste system and unfair treatment between people, don't we? Or is it just for those we agree with?
Dr. Seuss stories come to mind.
c
I guess I'll have to take your word for this - I'll definitely ask a few lawyers I know about it. It comes as a surprise to me. Our law is based on British Common Law and I always thought it was more secular than that.
Regarding what their children are taught in schools, radical Christians don't want their children told that homosexuality is ok. The problem is, the majority feel it is okay. So that's a problem for radical Christians to deal with. In a free society, there will be laws concerning what kids can be taught in both public and private schools. These laws reflect the public's collective desires about the kind of society they want to live in. That's why I maintain that radical Muslims, if they want to live by Sharia law, should get the hell out of our part of the world, because we don't live that way here. Regarding their ability to voice their opinions, they are free to do so, but must get used to being ridiculed for it. Regarding marriage, the Christians are taking a strong stand and seem to be holding some ground on this issue.
There's nothing perplexing about it at all (to me), especially considering the the particular 250 years you cite (the last 250) include the biggest changes every seen in human society, particularly in Western countries. It's unfortunate for those who would rather see us adhere to standards of behaviour which obtained in 1860, but this is progress.
To be honest, it is perplexing to me that anyone would find it perplexing that standards of behaviour have changed over the past 250 years.
Anyhow, the radical right has been forced to give a lot of ground and are taking at strong stand on the issue of the definition of marriage. The fight over what can be taught in schools is long over - it will never be legal for any radical Christian group to teach in their private schools that homosexuality is wrong, which is as it should be. Again, there are a lot of legal ramifications involved in proclaiming that gays can be 'married' in the same sense as opposite sex couples and this is why I am undecided on the issue. I am sure that eventually it will be allowed.
It does matter, of course it matters, because there is no way to argue or have any reasonable discussion with a fundamentalist who bases their arguments on their personal faith in religious belief systems...