Not again! Why can't good schools teach black students?

[CaptainObvious]

All of those challenges faced by these under achieving kids that you mention are there, to be sure. But I must say that the well documented results from Headstart, a program beset with every difficulty you recounted, makes me believe that extending a Headstart like program through the 6th grade, at least, could make a big difference. Headstart does improve achievement in the first grade significantly versus kids from similar backgrounds that did not go through Headstart. And importantly, that progress is achieved despite all the negative factors you mention. But the progress made fades slowly, so that by 4th grade there is little difference between the Headstart and the non-Headstart kids.

Now you can interpret this data in two ways. The first way is to conclude that since these Headstart kids largely regress by the time they reach 4th grade the program is not worthwhile. The second way to interpret the data is to conclude that we need to continue doing extra work with these kids until at least middle school. And then at that point evaluate progress and see if the extra effort has been warranted. I think the second way of interpreting the Headstart data makes the most sense in light of the huge benefits to society that could accrue from the additional investment. We know that every investment entails risk, but in this instance I think we have enough preliminary data to indicate the risk is worth taking. Certainly, to borrow a word from Mr. Trump's vocabulary, the payoff could be huge, really huge!

I admire your level headed approach to this issue, I really do, and I too would rather see my tax dollars spent saving lives rather than destroying them. That said, what I don't want and what I do see are my tax dollars being thrown down a rat hole which has no bottom.
The program that you're suggesting seems like an impossible task to me. Lets forget the financial cost, which would be enormous. and just talk about administering the logistics of such a program.
Head Start, such as it is in it's current form, can only get to about half of all the kids that need it, and that's the kids in the current age group. You want to expand that age group, which I absolutely agree would be necessary. The program now provides maybe a few hours of guidance and proper nutrition, and that's only during the school year. Summer? It's back to the wilds of the street and everything gained is lost.
A program that would actually work would require nearly 24/7 guidance, year round, and hands on help for every kid in every single urban area across the country. And expanding this from k-2 to k-4, not even close to enough time. What's really needed is K-12 and in-home assistance which will essentially absolve the parent from all responsibility.
At some point, and we're long past that point, someone has to look the black community in the eye and say, this is on you. You can't just keep spitting out kids in this impoverished life you have, and when you do you damn sure can't abandon your responsibilities as a parent. I'm telling you one and done is the beginning of a solution. You live in poverty, black or white, have a kid, we're here to help. Have another one and the tubes get tied. Hunt down the sperm donor and he gets snipped. Go have all the sex you like, but you're not having anymore children. Or, we can spend a hundred billion plus a year on half the kids who need it, keep them straight as possible until they're 8-10 and then watch them go back to the streets and all will be lost within a few months on the overwhelming majority of them.
Like I've been saying, there is no easy fix, and all of this will be administered by a government who can't build a f'n website. Good luck!

 

[piezoe]

While I concur that improving educational achievement at low income schools will require additional funding over that of middle income schools. It also requires changes in the attitudes of minority families towards education and personal responsibility. The home situation and attitudes of many minority families is actually the biggest barrier to educational success. My wife and daughter, who are educators, see this every single day in the classroom.

This being said, I do not have a solution for improving the family or home situation of these students so they can be more successful in the classroom. I am open to any & all reasonable ideas. Keep in mind that making these students successful so they can hold jobs and be productive members of society is for the public good; it reduces crime and prison costs over the long term.

I'm of the opinion that it is extremely difficult to change patterns of adult behavior, and that the older a student is the more difficult it is to succeed with remedial action. I think that the best odds of improving outcomes for historically underachieving minority students is to invent ways of working around the parents and start at a very early age. The kids in Headstart and those participating in the Boys and Girls clubs show progress despite poor parenting at home. The problem is that Headstart is underfunded and stops at too early an age, and the effective programs of the non-profits are not widely enough available. We need a national initiative in my opinion. I don't think this is something to be done piecemeal, it is too important.

If through intensive effort we could succeed in breaking the poverty cycle in a single generation, this would be a major achievement for the entire nation; more important perhaps than any thing else we might achieve.

 

[piezoe]

I admire your level headed approach to this issue, I really do, and I too would rather see my tax dollars spent saving lives rather than destroying them. That said, what I don't want and what I do see are my tax dollars being thrown down a rat hole which has no bottom.
The program that you're suggesting seems like an impossible task to me. Lets forget the financial cost, which would be enormous. and just talk about administering the logistics of such a program.
Head Start, such as it is in it's current form, can only get to about half of all the kids that need it, and that's the kids in the current age group. You want to expand that age group, which I absolutely agree would be necessary. The program now provides maybe a few hours of guidance and proper nutrition, and that's only during the school year. Summer? It's back to the wilds of the street and everything gained is lost.
A program that would actually work would require nearly 24/7 guidance, year round, and hands on help for every kid in every single urban area across the country. And expanding this from k-2 to k-4, not even close to enough time. What's really needed is K-12 and in-home assistance which will essentially absolve the parent from all responsibility.
At some point, and we're long past that point, someone has to look the black community in the eye and say, this is on you. You can't just keep spitting out kids in this impoverished life you have, and when you do you damn sure can't abandon your responsibilities as a parent. I'm telling you one and done is the beginning of a solution. You live in poverty, black or white, have a kid, we're here to help. Have another one and the tubes get tied. Hunt down the sperm donor and he gets snipped. Go have all the sex you like, but you're not having anymore children. Or, we can spend a hundred billion plus a year on half the kids who need it, keep them straight as possible until they're 8-10 and then watch them go back to the streets and all will be lost within a few months on the overwhelming majority of them.
Like I've been saying, there is no easy fix, and all of this will be administered by a government who can't build a f'n website. Good luck!

It would be a huge challenge and cost a great deal, as you point out. And we might fail! Nevertheless the potential payoff is so great I believe it would be a well justified investment of money and time. (Let us not forget that the same government, who chose private contractors that could not 'build a f'n website,' built Hoover Dam, Went to the Moon, and managed the sequencing of the Human Genome.)

 

[CaptainObvious]

It would be a huge challenge and cost a great deal, as you point out. And we might fail! Nevertheless the potential payoff is so great I believe it would be a well justified investment of money and time. (Let us not forget that the same government, who chose private contractors that could not 'build a f'n website,' built Hoover Dam, Went to the Moon, and managed the sequencing of the Human Genome.)

That was a loooong time ago brother. What have they done lately? But you're right, it could work after spending hundreds of billions and a couple decades, it might pay off. Or we could just ask black leadership, the community at large to own their own shit. Hell, I'd be willing to meet'em half way if they'd just step up and admit much of this is of their own doing. They like to say, treat us like we're grown ass men. Act like grown ass men first and grown ass men assume responsibility for their screw ups. It's 2016 people. Quit acting like you yourself just stepped out of some cotton field yesterday. That slave rap just ain't gonna' play anymore.

 

[vanzandt]

This is not an issue of skin color.

If the family structure is there, most kids will do better than their parents in this country. Period.

Why is it my problem, and why should I be taxed more.... to fix something that can never be fixed.

Harvard could charter little Harvard grade schools in the hood, ....and it wouldn't matter. All the tax dollars in the world thrown there as giveaways only leads to more drugs, more crime, and more slough.

There are plenty of excellent African-American homes that have very little and yet the kids excel, go on to college, and achieve their dreams. All a kid needs is parent(s) that really care. Its a tough, thankless job. It is. Its called sacrifice. Welcome to the world of producing children.

A lot of people have died to make this country the land of opportunity it is. And make no mistake... it still is. But to think constantly spending more and more money on more and more programs to fix this this most f*cked up of problems... is hogwash.

If we must give it away,... give it to the (real, dynamically led) churches and let them do the outreach required to build, educate morally, and enforce patterns required to strengthen the family unit. That is the only chance we have. But that won't happen either, the whole separation of church and state thing. Albeit we were founded on Judaeo-Christian values. That doesn't count.

I know this however,... what we are doing now is NEVER going to work. I have 50 years of data to prove it. This is one back-testing result you can take to the bank with 100% certainty going forward.

 

[fhl]

Trying to turn the gov't into mom and dad for a few million kids is something that will only make things worse and cost billions in the process.

 

[piezoe]

That was a loooong time ago brother. What have they done lately? But you're right, it could work after spending hundreds of billions and a couple decades, it might pay off. Or we could just ask black leadership, the community at large to own their own shit. Hell, I'd be willing to meet'em half way if they'd just step up and admit much of this is of their own doing. They like to say, treat us like we're grown ass men. Act like grown ass men first and grown ass men assume responsibility for their screw ups. It's 2016 people. Quit acting like you yourself just stepped out of some cotton field yesterday. That slave rap just ain't gonna' play anymore.

I am not unsympathetic to your position. I understand where it is coming from.

 

[piezoe]

This is not an issue of skin color.

If the family structure is there, most kids will do better than their parents in this country. Period.

Why is it my problem, and why should I be taxed more.... to fix something that can never be fixed.

Harvard could charter little Harvard grade schools in the hood, ....and it wouldn't matter. All the tax dollars in the world thrown there as giveaways only leads to more drugs, more crime, and more slough.

There are plenty of excellent African-American homes that have very little and yet the kids excel, go on to college, and achieve their dreams. All a kid needs is parent(s) that really care. Its a tough, thankless job. It is. Its called sacrifice. Welcome to the world of producing children.

A lot of people have died to make this country the land of opportunity it is. And make no mistake... it still is. But to think constantly spending more and more money on more and more programs to fix this this most f*cked up of problems... is hogwash.

If we must give it away,... give it to the (real, dynamically led) churches and let them do the outreach required to build, educate morally, and enforce patterns required to strengthen the family unit. That is the only chance we have. But that won't happen either, the whole separation of church and state thing. Albeit we were founded on Judaeo-Christian values. That doesn't count.

I know this however,... what we are doing now is NEVER going to work. I have 50 years of data to prove it. This is one back-testing result you can take to the bank with 100% certainty going forward.

We are doing things that are counterproductive. An example: in some States welfare benefits are very much tied to having dependents, i.e., children. You can not qualify for welfare beyond food stamps (which are supplemental) if you have no dependents or are not disabled no matter what your financial situation. That means, for example, in the states that did not expand medicaid there is no access to routine medical care (the alternative is horribly expensive!) and no access to government supplemented insurance (income too low to qualify). We are constantly trying to unfund planned parenthood and limit access to abortion. Our welfare system should be adjusted to create disincentives to cheat on disability and to have children that one can not afford, not incentives!!!, as we are doing now.

We're doing this because of unproductive backwards, and harmful thinking and politics. We want to rein in welfare because we are convinced that there are many lazy, welfare cheats, but because of our attitudes toward welfare we are actually creating incentives for people to be lazy and cheat. In doing this, we are punishing ourselves and those for whom welfare would be hugely beneficial to society. We are in reality fueling the kind of welfare society we so detest.* Some of this unproductive, harmful thinking I see exhibited right here on ET. It doesn't make sense. We should stop doing what doesn't make sense.

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* This is a fine example of 'reflexivity.' If you believe welfare is bad, you will create bad welfare.